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I think it is reprehensible that vaccine makers have been able to "perfect" their products on the paying public. "Make them better and safer" while making profit. If you don't think they profit, you are just the kind of trusting soul I need to find to help me get my financial life back in order after my divorce. By their very nature vaccines are a volume business. Opt outs steal sales.
My early purchases of compact fluorescent bulbs were very unsatisfying. The bulbs would burn out in 7 or 8 months instead of 7 or 8 years as advertised. Lightbulbs also are a volume industry. What are friends in high places for if not to craft legislation outlawing incandescent lightbulbs for residential usage. The Market will set the price of the bulbs, and the volume sales will bring the price down to where they will be competitive .... what competition? What price reduction? And the bulb life? I don't know and neither does anyone else. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice.
Did anyone know you needed Measles boosters? Erm, no, it has always been assumed that once vaccinated, forever immune and this fallacy has been tacitly allowed to settle in as fact. As I understand it there was/is political and ideological opposition to the vaccination of children in some Fundamentalist Islamic enemies of the West. Efforts to eradicate diseases like Polio and Measles can never be considered successful with these holdout areas still a part of Earth. But is it necessary?
When and if vaccinated individuals come in contact with unvaccinated, sick individuals is there protection from the vaccine or is there not? Were the people sickened by recent outbreaks all high risk immune compromised special case children or adults or were they not? It is a valid question. This argument keeps being raised that we must mass vaccinate to provide <cue "Land of Hope and Glory" by Elgar> herd immunity to protect those who for whatever reason cannot be vaccinated. How many of these people fall ill in a given year?
When ever did the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few, or the one? Try it somewhere else. I will not allow it to be the last word in this thread. If I vaccinate my child it is to protect him or her! I do NOT have a responsibility to anyone else's child. I am NOT part of a herd. I am a human being, not cattle, or sheep. I have reasonably humanitarian instincts but there are limits. Parents of healthy children should not be forced to subject their healthy children to the products of poorly regulated, profit oriented, social engineered medicine.
Last edited by Leisesturm; 06-01-2015 at 04:16 PM..
No matter what the stats say about the rate of shingles, it is true the being exposed to chicken pox provides a "boost" of immunity.
If childhood vaccination does not change the rate of shingles in adults, the "boost" is irrelevant to the discussion.
The fact is that shingles incidence was rising even before there was a vaccine, and it is not rising further in communities with high chickenpox vaccine coverage.
Parents in the third world go to lengths to get their children vaccinated that the ant-vaxxers in the US will never comprehend. They have actually seen deaths from measles, including their own children. No "emotional blackmail" is necessary.
Can you agree that if the access to medical intervention to support the sick was widely available in the Third World that there would be fewer, perhaps no deaths from an illness like measles? I include America in that Third World designation. And the "emotional blackmail" is only needed on American soil. In the Third World the U.S. uses much more effective economic sanctions and treaties, etc. to achieve our commercial aims abroad
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Please supply the source for your belief that measles is no more deadly than the common cold.
If you die from a complication of measles or the flu, then measles or the flu is the reason you died. If you had not had measles or the flu, you would not have had the complication.
Thousands of Ebola victims died despite heroic efforts. Your point?
Measles does not crash a bodies organs like Ebola does. Neither does the Flu. If as many Ebola patients have been saved as have been saved the pulling people through Measles should be child's play. My parents pulled my brother and I through it and no hospital was necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
There are already multiple Ebola vaccines in Phase II and III trials, so this argument can be trashed immediately.
There have been no flu vaccine shortages in recent years.
Show me a syringe ready product. My argument remains untrashed until that happy day arrives. There have been Flu Vaccine shortages in recent years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Sorry to tell you this but not everyone with HIV is promiscuous. A vaccine for HIV has proved difficult to produce due to the way the virus mutates; however, research does continue.
I didn't say everyone with HIV is promiscuous, I said that no one will market a vaccine for HIV because of the fear (by the usual suspects) that it will promote promiscuity. That's why birth control pills continue to be regulated like Oxycontin. It's why Gardasil was beaten back into the bushes of breakthrough research. If it at all appears like a prouduct makes sex safer it will be hounded out of sight before the public can get wind of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Antibiotic resistance is indeed a problem, but that does not mean antibiotics are "slowly going offline". Plenty of infections still respond to peniclillin, sulfa, and tetracycline, for example. New classes of antibiotics are being discovered.
Vaccines actually reduce presssure for antibiotic resistance because they reduce the need for antibiotics to treat vaccine preventable bacterial diseases and to treat bacterial complications of viral diseases, like skin infections in chickenpox.
In addition, dragging antibiotic resistance into this conversation is a bit like saying we should not use seat belts in automobiles because there is a problem with people dying in motorcycle accidents. Antibiotic resistance is irrelevant to the current discussion.
If antibiotics are "the only useful drugs the Big Pharma people ever came up with", where does that leave insulin? Anesthetics? Drugs for high blood pressure? Aspirin, Tylenol, and other pain medications?
All the people I know taking high blood pressure medication still have high blood pressure. All the diabetics I know on insulin are still going blind, losing feet, kidneys... and last but not least... painkillers... I laugh... anything that actually works is kept at Fort Knox and most of that stuff is deadly in even the slightest overdose. No, Suzy, I know you set a really low bar for the expectations of humanity with respect to what the Allied Health Industries can do for us but I don't. I expect MUCH more than we've gotten especially as so much of it is nigh unaffordable by the average individual.
I think it is reprehensible that vaccine makers have been able to "perfect" their products on the paying public. "Make them better and safer" while making profit. If you don't think they profit, you are just the kind of trusting soul I need to find to help me get my financial life back in order after my divorce. By their very nature vaccines are a volume business. Opt outs steal sales.
But you think antibiotics are a good thing. Drug companies provide them for free, I presume?
They will make up the lost sales by selling treatments for those who get sick with the diseases that they get because they are unvaccinated. Some of that will be for antibiotics.
Quote:
My early purchases of compact fluorescent bulbs were very unsatisfying. The bulbs would burn out in 7 or 8 months instead of 7 or 8 years as advertised. Lightbulbs also are a volume industry. What are friends in high places for if not to craft legislation outlawing incandescent lightbulbs for residential usage. The Market will set the price of the bulbs, and the volume sales will bring the price down to where they will be competitive .... what competition? What price reduction? And the bulb life? I don't know and neither does anyone else. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiice.
This has what to do with vaccines? Maybe you need to start a new thread somewhere else.
Quote:
Did anyone know you needed Measles boosters? Erm, no, it has always been assumed that once vaccinated, forever immune and this fallacy has been tacitly allowed to settle in as fact. As I understand it there was/is political and ideological opposition to the vaccination of children in some Fundamentalist Islamic enemies of the West. Efforts to eradicate diseases like Polio and Measles can never be considered successful with these holdout areas still a part of Earth. But is it necessary?
The majority of people do not need measles boosters, so there is no fallacy there.
When and if vaccinated individuals come in contact with unvaccinated, sick individuals is there protection from the vaccine or is there not? Were the people sickened by recent outbreaks all high risk immune compromised special case children or adults or were they not? It is a valid question. This argument keeps being raised that we must mass vaccinate to provide <cue "Lamd of Hope and Glory" by Elgar> herd immunity to protect those who for whatever reason cannot be vaccinated. How many of these people fall ill in a given year?
Vaccines are not 100% effective, so there is indeed risk to some individuals in coming in contact with a sick person - vaccinated or not.
The reason large numbers of those who are vulnerable to vaccine preventable diseases do not get them is because most people in the country have been vaccinated.
The majority of the cases of measles in the recent outbreak were unvaccinated, including children under the age of twelve months who were too young to take it.
During influenza outbreaks, immunocompromised adults and children are often hit hard.
Quote:
When ever did the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few, or the one? Try it somewhere else. I will not allow it to be the last word in this thread. If I vaccinate my child it is to protect him or her! I do NOT have a responsibility to anyone else's child. I am NOT part of a herd. I am a human being, not cattle, or sheep. I have reasonably humanitarian instincts but there are limits. Parents of healthy children should not be forced to subject their healthy children to the products of poorly regulated, profit oriented, social engineered medicine.
You are part of the herd whether you like the term or not. The only way not to be part of it is to live off the grid and never have contact with another human being.
"Poorly regulated, profit oriented, social engineered medicine" has increased life expectancy in the US dramatically - with vaccines contributing to a significant portion of that increase - in the last hundred years or so, with a large number of premature deaths and injuries to healthy children prevented.
If childhood vaccination does not change the rate of shingles in adults, the "boost" is irrelevant to the discussion.
The fact is that shingles incidence was rising even before there was a vaccine, and it is not rising further in communities with high chickenpox vaccine coverage.
So does it give people a boost or not? Science says it does. It's not irrelevant.
"Poorly regulated, profit oriented, social engineered medicine" has increased life expectancy in the US dramatically - with vaccines contributing to a significant portion of that increase - in the last hundred years or so, with a large number of premature deaths and injuries to healthy children prevented.
Not much longer. Life expectancy plateaued for most socio-economic groups a while back and it is going retr0grade for at least one socio-economic group in the U.S.
The majority of the cases of measles in the recent outbreak were unvaccinated, including children under the age of twelve months who were too young to take it.
During influenza outbreaks, immunocompromised adults and children are often hit hard.
How many children under 12 months exactly were there? In fact, a break-down of the total number of sick people by age and reason for vaccine exception should prove instructive. In the case of the California School System especially instructive. If Social Engineering does not fit the definition of what is being attempted there I don't know what the term means. Healthy, vaccinated children should have no fear of unvaccinated children and immunocompromised or otherwise unvaccinatable children should either take their chances, which are quite good. Or they should not be in a public school. Period. End of Story!
Can you agree that if the access to medical intervention to support the sick was widely available in the Third World that there would be fewer, perhaps no deaths from an illness like measles? I include America in that Third World designation. And the "emotional blackmail" is only needed on American soil. In the Third World the U.S. uses much more effective economic sanctions and treaties, etc. to achieve our commercial aims abroad
There will never, ever be a time when there are no deaths from measles. 30% of cases in 2015 result in complications, some of which can be deadly. Pneumonia, which affects 1 in 20 childhood measles patients, is the leading cause of death. There have been recent deaths from measles in Europe, including a little boy in Germany in Feb. Measles | Complications | CDC
Measles does not crash a bodies organs like Ebola does. Neither does the Flu. If as many Ebola patients have been saved as have been saved the pulling people through Measles should be child's play. My parents pulled my brother and I through it and no hospital was necessary.
Measles affects every organ system. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/conten...ment_1/S4.long "Complications from measles have been reported in every organ system (table 1). Many of these complications are caused by disruption of epithelial surfaces and immunosuppression [70–72]. Rates of complications from measles vary by age (table 2) and underlying conditions."
Flu also affects many organ systems. Influenza Renders Immune System Vulnerable | Yale Scientific Magazine "His results demonstrated that the influenza virus triggers a bodily response that causes a rise in serum glucocorticoid levels, leading to systemic immunosuppression. Such effects render the body vulnerable to bacterial infections that would otherwise be innocuous. . . .Dramatic general immunosuppression occurs, during which our immune system becomes temporarily deficient, compromised of its ability to handle problems that would otherwise not cause significant damage."
That you and your brother did not need to be hospitalized is irrelevant.
Show me a syringe ready product. My argument remains untrashed until that happy day arrives. There have been Flu Vaccine shortages in recent years.
Is this what you want? There was no flu vaccine shortage last year. There were some spot shortages of Tamiflu, the anti-viral drug.
I didn't say everyone with HIV is promiscuous, I said that no one will market a vaccine for HIV because of the fear (by the usual suspects) that it will promote promiscuity. That's why birth control pills continue to be regulated like Oxycontin. It's why Gardasil was beaten back into the bushes of breakthrough research. If it at all appears like a prouduct makes sex safer it will be hounded out of sight before the public can get wind of it.
I'll hold you to that prediction. I'm not sure about your point with Gardasil. Many anti-vaxers are strongly opposed to it.
All the people I know taking high blood pressure medication still have high blood pressure. All the diabetics I know on insulin are still going blind, losing feet, kidneys... and last but not least... painkillers... I laugh... anything that actually works is kept at Fort Knox and most of that stuff is deadly in even the slightest overdose. No, Suzy, I know you set a really low bar for the expectations of humanity with respect to what the Allied Health Industries can do for us but I don't. I expect MUCH more than we've gotten especially as so much of it is nigh unaffordable by the average individual.
High blood pressure cannot usually be cured; it can only be treated. Ditto diabetes. I don't know anyone whose diabetes is under control who is losing feet or kidneys. Nor do I know anyone addicted to painkillers.
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,365 posts, read 2,146,559 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
In case you are unaware, other countries do vaccinate, including Mexico and the countries in Central America. Some have higher vaccination rates than the US. Yes, any "illegal" I encounter is likely to have been vaccinated.
From the previous link:
"In response, several groups filed suit against New York State, claiming that the mandate deprived them of liberty without due process and violated their right to free exercise of religion, rights guaranteed by the Fourteenth and First Amendments. In the end, unanticipated vaccine shortages in October 2009 caused Governor David Paterson to halt the mandate, temporarily relieving health care workers of the influenza vaccination requirement. New York State plans to reinstate the mandate for the 2010 to 2011 influenza season."
But don't let the facts get in the way of your snark.
Vaccine mandates do not violate freedom of religion.
Who said freedom of religion? You must think you personally know who you are speaking to or something?
I mean if you are going to quote me, you should really try to focus on what I say. The NYSNA was fighting the non-contractual mandate. Nurses have clearly written in their contracts what is required of them, so does any other healthcare worker upon getting hired right down to clericals and cleaning people. This was unprecedented, and unneeded.
Nurses have contacted ADVANCE claiming the new rule is a violation of their civil rights as U.S. citizens, since the state expects those who don't comply to be staffed only in areas where they wouldn't pose a health risk to patients should they contract the flu and be disciplined in a manner similar to someone who's unwilling to follow protocol - which some are led to believe means a fast track to termination.
"I am a registered nurse who is being told [by my facility, via letter] that I will be fired if I do not get a flu vaccine," said Marie-Dominique Toussaint, RN, a New York hospital nurse. "I have never gotten the flu. I have never taken a flu vaccine. I am relatively healthy and choose not to be vaccinated knowing I may or may not get the flu someday. It's a 'risk' I take and it's mine to take."
Our southern border is crossed by people from all over the world - not just people from Mexico.
This is from an article on the topic dated Aug 2014 -
• 1,443 people from China were apprehended while crossing the U.S. border so far this year, with an additional 1,803 people either turning themselves in to U.S. authorities at official ports of entry, or being caught attempting to illegally enter at the ports of entry.
• Twenty-eight individuals from Pakistan were apprehended while crossing the U.S. border this year, with another 211 individuals either turning themselves in or being caught at official ports of entry.
• Thirteen Egyptians were apprehended while crossing the U.S. border this year, with another 168 either turning themselves in or being caught at official ports of entry.
• Four individuals from Yemen were apprehended while crossing the U.S. border in 2014, with another 34 individuals either turning themselves in or being caught attempting to illegally enter at the ports of entry.
• Four individuals from Somalia were apprehended while crossing the U.S. border in 2014. Another 290 either turned themselves in or were apprehended at official ports of entry.
Since it is not possible to know how many people crossing our border illegally escape detection, the above figures suggest that many more people from across the globe have crossed our southern border.
It's too bad that you didnt watch those preceeding though. Maybe you can explain why substances like mercury and formaldhyde are/were in the vaccine? I wouldnt think that is very healthy for anyone - compromised or not.
Last edited by ConeyGirl52; 06-01-2015 at 05:52 PM..
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