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How many people have died from the Measles in the last 10 years in America? If it's 6.9 deaths from the MMR as you've stated that's a lot more than those who've died from the measles.
That is not the confirmed death rate from the vaccine. That would be the rate if all the deaths in VAERS reports were due to the vaccine. They are not, but we can use it as an outlying maximum if you wish.
The absence of deaths from measles is due to the fact that over 90% of the country is vaccinated for measles. Stop vaccinating and more people will die from measles itself. We would be back to 500 deaths per year.
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There are parents who've watched their kids go from soccer team champs to crippled over night after receiving a vaccine. Would you dismiss it if it were your child? Wow, that's amazing if you could. As a parent I think I would be devastated. But, the worse part of all is when nobody acknowledges that link and those parents now would have to by law give one more round of vaccines so their kids could stay in school. You think they will? I wouldn't and I think it's a lot to ask of them.
Kids get vaccinated at the same ages that other medical problems tend to appear. It is a mathematical impossibility that vaccination and the condition would not at times coincide. Get that? It's impossible that some medical conditions will not be diagnosed soon after vaccination.
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If you think you're frustrated, think of how frustrated some are who you think are ignoring statistics. The facts are that you are more likely to die from the MMR shot today than the Measles. No amount of fear from yesteryear is going to change those current statistics you dismiss for what could be one day.
Just because you'd risk it for the slight chance that measles will become an epidemic doesn't mean all will or should. Obviously your children didn't have any complications from their vaccines. Nice and normal, no issues. That isn't the case for everyone.
If we stop vaccinating, many more will die from measles. The only reason we are not seeing measles deaths is because of vaccination.
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What it's really about is that some people have children who DO suffer vaccine injury. Like I said, when your child is injured you care, and it doesn't matter if they were injured for the good of all.
Yes, there is a risk of vaccine injury. That risk is tiny compared to the risks of vaccine preventable diseases.
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I gave my child all the recommended vaccines, I was a good mom a good person who cares about the health of our country. I see now that the mercury in those vaccines may have a tie to my child's Tourettes syndrome. I see they've removed mercury now and I'm glad on the slight chance it does.
There is a strong genetic component of Tourette Syndrome. Research is homing in on some of the genes involved.
Have you never read any of this material? Talked with your son's doctor about it?
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I think about it sometimes as my child is crying because he's slamming his arm against a desk constantly without being able to stop. We can't fly, go on trains, he can't attend school, get's made fun of and yes, it's forever.
I'm one of those parents who did take the risk for your children. Let me tell ya, watching my son sometimes I regret it, but I made that choice and have to live with it. I'll never know if that was a cause or not. I often hope it wasn't.
I would think that the available information on Tourette's would relieve you of the guilt over vaccinating your son. The evidence is that he was born with Tourette's and vaccine had nothing to do with it.
I am concerned that your approach to Tourette's is to isolate your son rather than teaching him about his condition and how to deal with inconsiderate stupidity from other people. How about having him say to someone who is rude, "Hello, my name is Jake and I have Tourette's Syndrome. It's a nervous system condition that causes me to have movements I cannot control and say things I do not mean to. I noticed your rude comment. Perhaps you have Tourette's, too? Surely you did not mean to say what you did about me."
teach him that , as with any bullying, it's the bully who has a problem, not him.
A support group could be very helpful.
If you want to send him to school, a frank talk with the administration concerning an absolute no tolerance policy toward bullying could be quite fruitful.
Yes, Tourette's is forever, but see the article above where the physician talks about living with his symptoms. People with TS can live satisfying lives. Your goal should be to get your son there.
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Do you think for one minute a parent who's kids had massive seizures and is now the opposite to the champion of his soccer team he once was after his vaccines is going to be willing to do it again on the recommended schedule? You act like that's an easy decision to make. Most people who refuse vaccines do so because they have already had what they consider to be a vaccine injury Mark. Threatening these people into it by now withholding an education or medical care will only make things worse for them. If you can't understand that and it makes you frustrated with them oh well. I'm sure they don't care as they are busy spoon feeding their 16 year old and changing his diaper. Go figure their lack of interest in statistics.
No, most people who refuse vaccines are not doing so because they have already had a vaccine injury. The ones with a true vaccine injury can get medical exemptions. They do not need philosophical exemptions, and that is what we need to eliminate.
A certain percentage of the population develops epilepsy. Each of those people has a day on which he had his first seizure. Let's suppose that mom decides, strictly by random chance, to take her child, who is destined to have epilepsy, to the pediatrician on the very day that he will have the first seizure due to his epilepsy. I think you will agree that doctor's visits are stressful for children. Stress alone can precipitate a seizure. Then our hypothetical epileptic child gets his shots and has his first seizure right there in the doctor's office. Everyone, including the doctor, will wonder if one of the vaccines caused the seizure. A VAERS report should be made. Perhaps we would even say that child should get no more vaccines: a medical exemption. However, we know from looking at millions of children receiving vaccines, that seizure disorders are no more common in children who are vaccinated than those who are not. An exception would be seizures triggered by fever, and kids can have a fever after being vaccinated. We know that such seizures are totally benign and are due to the fever, not specifically the vaccine.
A lay person may have a difficult time accepting that a vaccine did not cause her child to have epilepsy. However, her belief that the vaccine must have done it does not mean the vaccine did it. That is why all of the "stories" on anti-vax websites do not mean that thousands of children have been harmed by vaccines.
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With growing vaccine rates there will also be growing vaccine injury. People will have relatives, neighbors and friends who's child suffer from them. This will increase the number of people who will be worried about their own kids safety regarding vaccines. Kicking them out of school isn't going to stop this. It will just make them more afraid. Our government likes to use this as propaganda to win elections, it's a hot topic. Well, we will see how well it works protecting our kids. California is large enough to get some good stats from. You know where I stand, I stand with choice and better programs to help those who claim they've been injured. But, I have little choice when the majority doesn't share my view. I have to respect at least that.
The incidence of true, severe adverse events is tiny. The increased number of vaccinated children will never convert that number to a large number of severe adverse events. That number will still be tiny. You can increase a risk from one in a million to ten in a million and it's still a tiny risk.
It works in Mississippi and West Virginia. There is no reason to expect it will not work in California.
The risk of severe complications from vaccine preventable diseases outweighs the risks of vaccines by many orders of magnitude.
It is only your opinion that we need a better way to help people with true injuries - not anyone who simply believes there is an injury, but the truly injured. Even the lawyers agree that injured people are more likely to get awards (and they are generous) through the current program than through the tort system.
I do think about that. People with natural immunity not being exposed to children with these diseases. No BOOSTfor the immune system to go into full gear so to speak. Basically, people not being exposed to these diseases causing waning immunity.
That has been shown not to be a factor in adult shingles. Repeating it over and over does not turn untruth into truth.
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I haven't been around a child with chicken pox in over 20 years. Measles, etc., in over 50 years. No contact with the disease to give a boost the immunity. I do think this could create a big problem for and.with older adults and eventually call for everyone to get these vaccinations even if you had the diseases. Quell the fears of the paranoid, and of course, sell more vaccinations.
It's not happening. Vaccinating kids is keeping adults from getting sick.
Are you really unable to understand that if you are not exposed to anyone with a vaccine preventable disease there is no one to catch it from?
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I will say that I do not FEAR catching any of these diseases, including Shingles, to get either tithers done, and certainly not any vaccinations for them. In the same theme, I will be damned if I will isolate myself because the SHEEP do not want others to opt out of their Herd by either tithers, boosters, or vaccinations.
"Cannot opt out of the Herd". That is a very frightening statement. I read between the lines of that concentration camps and/or forced vaccinations on the entire population. Seems far to many heath care "professionals" would want that. Neither caring nor professional. Poppysead, has the correct attitude. Choice and encouragment; not mandatory anything.
I will not say a certain word which comes to mind over this, but I think you, and others here, know which government I am talking about.
Unless you have contact with absolutely no other human beings you are part of the herd. You can be vaccinated or unvaccinated, but everyone in the world is part of the herd as far as vaccine preventable diseases is concerned. What any single human does in regard to vaccination affects everyone else.
What does tithing have to do with vaccines?
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Originally Posted by PoppySead
This is interesting actually. It's part of this transmission theory you state I haven't yet understood. Is it just that your mad that you have to take the risk of vaccinating and are paying back with mandates or is it that you really want to stop transmission of disease? Isn't that the very premise of the mandates? To many unvaxed groups of kids?
How is taking a few un-vaccinated kids out of a herd of vaccinated kids and grouping them altogether in an unvaxed group going to help stop transmission? Outbreaks?
How is it that doctors refusing to treat patients who haven't had vaccines, or up to date vaccines and removing them from the practice and sending them to the practice that in a for profit healthcare system will gain from those left and having offices full of the un-vaccinated going to help stop transmission?
It seems like it would create the opposite. It seems as if it will create large pockets of people ripe for disease. They at least had heard protection as you like to point out before, now they will have none. They will have access to all the same public areas you do, including field trips to theme parks.
Already some states advocating freedom to be who you want to be have a larger number of unvaxed kids because they allow more exemptions. These places might become appealing to those with two parents working when California doesn't allow any option but homeschooling. It would be worth the move to a lot of parents. Then you will have a disproportionate number of people from one state to the next who have a higher chance at causing a true outbreak.
Plus, medical exemptions are allowed, so you will still have someone who can transmit a virus they've contracted elsewhere at school.
The only theory I get is, "oh they will vaccinate because they aren't that convicted. This mandate will get all of them to finally do it." Do you share the same view? Do you think these parents are just lazy?
This is my concern with mandating. It's a valid concern and is addressed a lot on science blogs and homeschool blogs. A lot of people homeschool to avoid vaccinating.
Either the feds come in and mandate the country or we are heading toward an increasing likely hood of an outbreak.
If transmission is in question, why not yearly blood work to make sure those who did vaccinate attained immunity? Especially if they will be including a flu vaccine in the future. Otherwise, this transmission argument makes no sense. More will be at your school who could transmit a virus picked up at a theme park let's say.
Herd immunity needs a herd to protect doesn't it? Why not just encourage more people and accept some will not but be protected by others? It's safer from a transmission stand point isn't it?
Mississippi and West Virginia are not having outbreaks. I seriously doubt that very many people will leave California over mandates. Most who have not vaccinated their children will just get it done, and there will be very few true serious adverse events in that group of children, possibly - even highly probably - none.
Mississippi and West Virginia are not having outbreaks. I seriously doubt that very many people will leave California over mandates. Most who have not vaccinated their children will just get it done, and there will be very few true serious adverse events in that group of children, possibly - even highly probably - none.
Do MS and WV have a lot of international tourists coming and going from their states? Are these states considered role models as far as public health?
Do MS and WV have a lot of international tourists coming and going from their states? Are these states considered role models as far as public health?
Do you really think no one from MS or WV ever travels outside the US? Most measles is imported by citizens who travel abroad. By the way, you would be surprised, I suspect, at how many people from other countries are interested in the American Civil War and visit historical sites in the South.
MS & WV are certainly better role models for control of vaccine preventable diseases than the rest of the country. It's hilarious that you think that is not true. Whatever is wrong with health care in those two states, preventing those diseases is not one of them.
Do you really think no one from MS or WV ever travels outside the US? Most measles is imported by citizens who travel abroad. By the way, you would be surprised, I suspect, at how many people from other countries are interested in the American Civil War and visit historical sites in the South.
MS & WV are certainly better role models for control of vaccine preventable diseases than the rest of the country. It's hilarious that you think that is not true. Whatever is wrong with health care in those two states, preventing those diseases is not one of them.
You're twisting my words. I asked if MS and WV have a lot of international tourists coming and going from their states? I'll add to that question, Would that number even be comparable to the number seen in a state as large as CA? You took that as me thinking that no one from MS or WV travels outside of the country. Of course they do but are the numbers even close to as high as those travelling outside of the US as CA? The answer is no.
My second question was, "Are these states considered role models as far as public health?". You then went on to talk about how great they are at using vaccines. From an overall health perspective these two states consistently rank in the bottom when it comes to overall health. It's ok as long as people aren't getting measles????
You said this as well:
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
It works in Mississippi and West Virginia. There is no reason to expect it will not work in California.
There are plenty of reasons to believe that it will not work the same in CA as it does in WV and MS due to many factors including the massive size of the state as well as differences regarding tourism as well as differences in lifestyles which includes views on heath. CA residents tend to be more into natural and alternative health overall then residents of MS and WV overall. If you think that the situation in CA will play out how it has in MS and WV then I'd say that you are in for a rude awakening.
Last edited by MissTerri; 06-10-2015 at 03:26 PM..
There recently was a case of a little girl in Spain who had Diptheria. On another website people were screaming about parents not vaccinating their children and bringing back that disease also.
Did a little research. That vaccination only last 10 years. Think about that. If you pass laws mandating all children with that vaccine, will that give Herd Immunity?
This article states that for Herd Immunity 85% of adults need to be vaccinated. 13% have gotten a Tdap as of that article. Have 85% of them gotten their TD shot every 10 years? If 85% haven't, is there Herd Immunity? Well, maybe here in the US, but who travels to foreign countries (like Spain)? Adults do all the time on business.
Vaccination papers, Citizen? Blood Thither records? Set up vaccination clinics at Customs? lol
Even though your woo source said diphtheria vaccine only lasts 10 years, which isn't true, the kid was only 6 years old and UNIMMUNIZED! He should have had a booster this year! Now his parents are claiming they were "hoodwinked" by the anti-vax movement. The AVers do make it seem like all these diseases were just minor inconveniences.
This isn't a binary either / or issue. The concept and science of vaccines is pretty sound, but sometimes the practice, especially when mixed with corrupt big pharma interest, doesn't always make vaccines as safe as many want you to believe. Take a page from the anti-vaxxers and actually put in more safe guards to make sure vaccines are safe rather than creating a new Reich with the power to force people to do everything the state wants.
Also don't always listen to doctors and scientist about vaccines. They are domain experts in the purity of the science of vaccines, how things work in theory. Many are not domain experts in corporate corruption and human beings making mistakes.
I'm not against vaccines per se, but I do thing that there are big interest trying to get you vaccinated for every possible thing under the sun. And some of the ingredients that big pharma puts in the vaccine cocktails may not be as safe as they claim. How do we know? Because the fringe already complained about some of the ingredients, and those ingredients have been mostly removed. Don't take some sci-nerd's fanatical belief that all science is puritanical and that their aren't still things that could not be dangerous.
Don't let people put this in a "vaccines always good" "vaccines always bad" argument. Instead maybe view vaccines as a general good thing but be a little skeptical of the companies that manufacture vaccines that have already been caught doing things that endanger those who use their products.
[url=http://www.sb277.org/]California Coalition For Vaccine Choice - No Shot. No School. California SB 277 Mandated Vaccination EVERY CHILD every vaccine[/ur]
Let's see how many lies and half truths there are in your link. Quotes from the link are italicized:
"California Vaccine Rates are on the rise. Vaccination rates WENT UP from 2013/2014 to 2014/2015 from .1% to .4%. California’s children are vaccinated at a rate of 97.46% !!"
Gee, an increase of 0.1% to 0.4% justifies two exclamation points!!
California's children are not vaccinated at a rate of 97.46%:
For 2014-2015, about 90% of kindergartners had all their shots.
"Vaccine Exemptions are down"
That helps. The problem is that there are counties that still have high exemption rates. Those with personal belief exemptions of 6% to 9% push the total vaccination rates in those counties below the level needed to sustain herd immunity. That creates clusters of people who are susceptible to vaccine preventable diseases and sets the stage for larger outbreaks. Even in the counties with lower exemption rates, the odds are the kids with exemptions might go to the same schools.
"Exemption statistics are inaccurate using an "all or nothing" method. A child missing even 1 shot would fall under the category of "unvaccinated." 99% of parents utilizing the PBE for their children are selectively vaccinating."
Well, then, what's the beef? If 99% of those families plan to fully vaccinate, they just need to make sure their "alternative schedule" completes the shots needed in time to start school.
"There is no health CRISIS! The Measles outbreak is OVER! MMR (Measles/Mumps/Rubella) vaccinations INCREASED from last year to this year exceeding the 90% herd immunity rates! Measles Outbreak: a significant proportion of the infected people were ADULTS who would not be affected by school vaccination laws. Under 200 cases in a state with 33.8 MILLION people; the number of cases was relatively small and it never gained traction in the greater community. Three strong reasons against need for mandated (no choice) vaccinations."
Herd immunity protects adults, too. You do not catch measles if no one else has it.
Um, the concern is not about the outbreak that is over, it's about the next one, and the next one, and the next one ...
Mississippi and West Virginia have had no cases in years.
Then there is whining about the number of vaccines (People, protecting against potentially fatal diseases is a good thing. The more we can prevent, the better.), stating that one must be vaccinated to live in California (no), and a claim that the right to informed consent is lost (no). All those choices are still in place. Your choice will determine whether your child can go to school, though.
"Vaccines are pharmaceutical products that cause injury and death for some. The United States Government has paid out more than $3 billion dollars to vaccine victims. Many more people have adverse reactions. Nobody can predict who will be harmed from vaccines."
All true, but ignores the risk that not vaccinating presents. Nobody can predict who will be seriously harmed by vaccine preventable diseases either, and there are a lot more of those than there are people harmed by vaccines. Implicit in this is also the fact that vaccine refusers are freeloading on the protection from those who vaccinate and take the risk. The freeloaders get the benefit of the vaccines and shoulder none of the risk.
"Vaccine development involves the use of aborted fetal tissue and some vaccines include “human diploid cells". Some individuals do not want to participate in an industry that uses aborted babies for research and development of products."
Fair enough, but if you feel that way, don't vaccinate. Others do not share your belief. Home school your child if you feel that strongly. You have that choice.
"Vaccines are against many individuals' moral and religious convictions."
This has been extensively discussed. If you feel that strongly about vaccines, home school your child.
"Pharmaceutical companies are NOT liable for vaccine reactions"
True. Those reactions are not caused by any negligence on the part of the manufacturer. They are inherent in the biologic nature of vaccines. If adverse events happen, it is not the fault of the company that made the vaccine. If left at the mercy of the tort system, companies could spend much more money than they would have ever made on vaccines defending lawsuits. In order to keep vaccines available and affordable, we have a no fault system. You do not have to sue anyone, just file a claim. If you have an injury that could be caused by a vaccine - you do not even have to prove the vaccine did it - and the injury happened during a time frame when the vaccine could have been responsible, then you will be awarded compensation. Those awards are very generous, which is the reason the total amount of money paid for claims so far is as high as it is.
"Adverse reactions are more common than widely perceived: Managed by the CDC and FDA, the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) reports more than 30,000 vaccine related injuries annually. Since 2000, 142 Californians have suffered severe adverse reactions, resulting in 46 deaths of California citizens. Children under the age of 11 months suffered 52.82% of these adverse reactions. In that same time period, VAERS reported the deaths of 707 American citizens. Vaccines fail sometimes where even fully vaccinated people become infected. Nobody can predict who will or will not respond to vaccines."
No, there have been 30,000 VAERS reports, annually, not 30,000 vaccine related injuries. Whoever wrote that undoubtedly knows better. I consider the persistent misuse of VAERS data to be despicable.
Yes, vaccines sometimes fail and there is no way to predict for whom that will happen. However, most childhood vaccines have high effectiveness rates and when failures happen the disease tends to be less severe. Vaccines succeed far more often than they fail.
"Big Pharma has a fraudulent history: In the past 5 years, drug makers have paid the U.S. Government $19.2 billion in criminal and civil fraud penalties."
If vaccine makers do bad things, they should get dinged. Merck is indeed under fire, not for the MMR II, but for the mumps component only. See how misleading that is? Tell people its the combined vaccine, not the single component. We will have to see how that plays out, but from what I have read the government was asking for an efficacy for the mumps vaccine that appears to be out of reach.
What I do not see here is any source that says that the penalties were due to selling bad vaccines. If they were, sources would be helpful. "Fraud" usually means financial shenanigans, not negligence. And that is exactly the question with the current case against Merck.
The link to the California statistics given above has an interesting factoid. For the past school year there were 13,592 children with personal belief exemptions. If, as the anti-mandate link says, 99% of those are children who are being "selectively" vaccinated, there are only 136 children with personal belief exemptions for all vaccines. Let them be home schooled.
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
You're twisting my words. I asked if MS and WV have a lot of international tourists coming and going from their states? I'll add to that question, Would that number even be comparable to the number seen in a state as large as CA? You took that as me thinking that no one from MS or WV travels outside of the country. Of course they do but are the numbers even close to as high as those travelling outside of the US as CA? The answer is no.
Obviously there wold be fewer visitors to those two states. They are indeed much smaller. However, most outbreaks here in the US are started by citizens, not foreign visitors, and indeed, though you seem to think there is nothing in Mississippi or W. Virginia to attract a tourist from another country, people do come to those two states from other countries. There are international airports in Mississippi, and airports in bordering states provide easy access to West Virginia. Remember, it takes only one person - visitor or citizen - to start an outbreak. Every other state except those two has had imported measles cases.
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My second question was, "Are these states considered role models as far as public health?". You then went on to talk about how great they are at using vaccines. From an overall health perspective these two states consistently rank in the bottom when it comes to overall health. It's ok as long as people aren't getting measles????
From the standpoint of vaccine preventable diseases, they are doing a better job than the other 48 states, so, yes they are role models for preventing vaccine preventable diseases. To insist otherwise is just ... weird.
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There are plenty of reasons to believe that it will not work the same in CA as it does in WV and MS due to many factors including the massive size of the state as well as differences regarding tourism as well as differences in lifestyles which includes views on heath. CA residents tend to be more into natural and alternative health overall then residents of MS and WV overall. If you think that the situation in CA will play out how it has in MS and WV then I'd say that you are in for a rude awakening.
California residents who are into "natural and alternative health" are fueling outbreaks of vaccine preventable illness. if they continue not to vaccinate, the situation will not change. Let's see how it works out. After all, according to the link Poppy gave, there are only 136 school children in California whose parents do not want their kids to have any vaccines.
This isn't a binary either / or issue. The concept and science of vaccines is pretty sound, but sometimes the practice, especially when mixed with corrupt big pharma interest, doesn't always make vaccines as safe as many want you to believe. Take a page from the anti-vaxxers and actually put in more safe guards to make sure vaccines are safe rather than creating a new Reich with the power to force people to do everything the state wants.
Also don't always listen to doctors and scientist about vaccines. They are domain experts in the purity of the science of vaccines, how things work in theory. Many are not domain experts in corporate corruption and human beings making mistakes.
I'm not against vaccines per se, but I do thing that there are big interest trying to get you vaccinated for every possible thing under the sun. And some of the ingredients that big pharma puts in the vaccine cocktails may not be as safe as they claim. How do we know? Because the fringe already complained about some of the ingredients, and those ingredients have been mostly removed. Don't take some sci-nerd's fanatical belief that all science is puritanical and that their aren't still things that could not be dangerous.
Don't let people put this in a "vaccines always good" "vaccines always bad" argument. Instead maybe view vaccines as a general good thing but be a little skeptical of the companies that manufacture vaccines that have already been caught doing things that endanger those who use their products.
A big concern for parents I hear about it the HRSA Vaccine court not admitting fault of vaccine in correlation to injury even if they reward an amount for a vaccine related injury.
There is a tax on every vaccine to account for the pay outs for injury. ( essentially we are paying for our own injury compensation) When talking about protecting children it's from a disease standpoint, and not from a health standpoint. We aren't trying to protect from injury for example, just from disease and injuries relating to that.
Since it's limited in payouts you have to qualify from their list of acceptable injury claims. So, I think some parents feel they aren't being taken seriously. You have to hope your child falls within a category if they are injured or else you are out of luck as far as the Vaccine injury compensation program.
It's a bit confusing to say the least. Plus, those states with heavy mandates without exemptions except medical (and it has to be accepted at that) do not require homeschoolers to vaccinate leaving a hole in the transmission theory.
The government also states it's allowed to rule above parental consent about vaccination under the idea that they have the right to protect ones child against the parent but, not when it comes to vaccine injury. The parent does not have the right to protect against that as a health concern. So the wording is also confusing for parents, it's creating fear which isn't productive in any case.
Not to mention as you note, the vaccine companies being exempt to law suits, and not having to proclaim relation to vaccine injury when they profit from the mandates is a bit disturbing. Not all people are going to trust that. Some will for go vaccination in fear of no recourse and no understanding or accountability regarding vaccine injury.
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the available information on Tourette's would relieve you of the guilt over vaccinating your son. The evidence is that he was born with Tourette's and vaccine had nothing to do with it.
