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Where does it say Right to Equality in Education EXCEPT IF? Except if you are an illegal child? Except if you are an unvaccinated child?
As a Civil Rights issue, this could be sued in Federal Court. Individual or Class Action suit against the State of California, which would be heard in Federal Court. Unequal treatment under the law.
Best people to sue would be parents of children in Head Start since that is a Federal Program, and Federal monies are given to the states for that program, which pay part of the wages for staff in HS.
Suzy, don't quote me Jacobson. There is no PANDEMIC of any disease in the US, for them to impose Martial Law. Even when a Flu Pandemic was declared in 2009, the Feds did not use that law. THINK ABOUT THAT, Suzy. It would have been political suicide to force a flu shot on all citizens, not to mention a whole of, perhaps, armed resistance if the health police came knocking on people's doors.
Be a Good Sport? Hell, no, when it comes to your own body, and your children's, that is THE most important thing YOU own. Since my children are adults, and I am retired from Education, this doesn't apply to my particular situation, YET. However, I on the basis of ANY mandatory medical treatment, I will try to do my part. I most definitely will not be a "good sport" as an adult WHEN, not if, they come after me. Take your Tdap, Hep. B. Flu, Shingles, etc, and stick it where your sun doesn't shine.
You underestimate public on this.
Once again, Jo, its just stuff we are rehashing that doesn't seem to sink in with you. For starters, this has been "taken up" in federal court and your side has lost. There have Supreme Court and Court of Appeals decisions that make it clear a state can have a compulsory vaccination law even if there is no pandemic going on. The state's police power (to protect the health, welfare, and safety of its citizens) is sufficient to override the very minimal personal liberty considerations involved in being required to have a shot. Please read Zucht v. King, 260 US 174 (1922). More recently the Second Circuit Court of Appeals reaffirmed this exact same rule in another case where compulsory vaccination laws were at issue and no pandemic was going on. See Caviezel v. Great Neck Public Schools, 500 F. App. 16 (CA2, 2012). Jacobson was merely the first case that dealt with this issue. Other cases have since refined and sharpened it.
I "don't underestimate the public on this" at all. Public opinion polls have consistently shown that 2/3's of the public support compulsory vaccination laws. The heavy vote in favor of this law in the California legislature is consistent with this. Politicians don't want to lose elections. They generally do what their constituents want. I think those who oppose compulsory vaccination are guilty of underestimating the impact of what happened at Disneyland. Frankly, you all should have seen this coming.
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Originally Posted by stevek64
A child's diet/lifestyle and the health issues that result does indeed go way beyond themselves and does indeed affect other kids and the entire community. Let's start with a kid who doesn't eat right. That kid eating junk food all the time, not eating lots of fruits and vegetables, will get sick more because their immune system isn't up to par and will get things like the cold and flu more often, passing this on to other kids and people in the community. And no, the answer isn't pull them out of school and problem solved(we could say the same for vaccinated kids too if this were true, right?). Before a person gets serious symptoms, they are passing the virus to others. There will be lost productivity, in school and eventually the work force(last I knew kids grow up to be working adults) when kids get health issues from a bad lifestyle/diet, strain on our healthcare system/cost associated with it, etc.
My point in all of this is asking where does it end? One can make lots of arguments for more government control on other choices parents make and frankly, some might be ok with new controls for valid reasons to some as I made above. I'm not saying that vaccines are right/wrong, you missed the point of my entire post you responded too and it appears you took it a little too personal of an attack on vaccines. I see gray here. And I see a potential snowball running downhill. You seem to see it as "just do it and shut up" and this decision exists in a vacuum with no potential ramifications beyond it. We disagree strongly on this point, and vaccines have nothing to do with what we disagree with....there's a bigger issue I'm making here.
Your point that kids who eat poorly may spread disease is tangential indeed. Perhaps, you could show me a medical study that documents all the disease spread by children in our schools with poor nutrition. Its a speculative point made without citing authority. What diseases are we talking about ? The common cold? There is all the difference in the world between this speculation and the reality that unvaccinated children were likely to spread measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox before these vaccinations became available.
If you see the "slippery slope" in all of this than you probably even oppose having agencies like CPS to deal with cases of child abuse and neglect. After all, in your mind that must seem the slipperiest slope of all in terms of "destroying parental rights".
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Originally Posted by PoppySead
In fact, vaccines were so unprofitable that some companies stopped making them altogether. In 1967, there were 26 vaccine manufactures. That number dropped to 17 by 1980. Ten years ago, the financial incentives to produce vaccines were so weak that there was growing concern that pharmaceutical companies were abandoning the vaccine business for selling more-profitable daily drug treatments. Compared with drugs that require daily doses, vaccines are only administered once a year or a lifetime. The pharmaceutical company Wyeth (which has since been acquired by Pfizer) reported that they stopped making the flu vaccine because the margins were so low.
Try just being honest. Maybe then more people will stop finding your suspicious. Vaccines are profitable, so what? We have a for profit health care system, so what? The ability to sue a drug company has been stopped. Supreme Court vaccine ruling: parents can't sue drug makers for kids' health problems - CBS News They have no liability, so patients have no recourse other than their lowly funded compensation fund which has a list of what is acceptable injury or death.
So, prove me wrong. Good luck! There are 30,000 injuries and death reported a year to this compensation fund. The probability that they are all coincidence is absurd. Another reason people are skeptical.
Science changes with evidence to the contrary. It's not the final word. It's proven wrong all the time, it welcomes it. It helps to improve our life.
Parents should be the ones making the choice too risk a vaccine injury or death for their own child, however small it is. Not you or any group of you. Because, there will be vaccine casualties. They aren't 100% effective. You don't get to determine who takes that risk for the team.
If your child is the one who gets injured, you have to be content you made that choice. No parent should feel they were bullied into this, or tricked into this. Transparency and encouragement to make good choices and realize risks would be a more appropriate approach.
It should never come down to " your child's well being vs my child's well being" which is what these mandates are creating. And they are all for the guaranteed profit in producing vaccines. I understood this, and I realize we live in a capitalist society. It's not to hard to comprehend. All the propaganda to make people ok with this is meaningless.
All this will do is force people who may not want one or two of the mass amounts of vaccines we give our children. This might just encourage them to skip the rest. Not a good idea, and not beneficial. I know a lot of mothers who don't want their kids to have the HPv vaccine. It's mandatory in West Virginia now. They had all the rest. Big deal!
There are 30,000 reports of bad effects after taking vaccine. That's far different than saying 30,000 people were injured due to vaccines. Again its ground that's been covered and your refusal to acknowledge the limitations of the VAERS reports destroys your credibility on this point.
Should parents be able to choose whether their children sit in a child safety seat or wear a seat belt in a car? Some injuries and deaths are associated with these.
Finally, every country in the world has to deal with pharmaceutical companies whether they have national health insurance or not. The pharmaceutical companies only exist because of profit. Profit is hardly a dirty word when it results in a supply of vaccines and medicines for us.
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Originally Posted by PoppySead
The medical community is so concerned with our health. They are so dedicated to their jobs. lol
We all should trust these people because of what? Some special magic potion that eliminates their human characteristics? Please! I crack up every time people quote medical professionals. They aren't doing themselves any favors. I wouldn't even admit I worked in medicine. Our system is horrid. You here this yearly on the news. I don't even bat an eye anymore. Most of us just cross our fingers when we go to the hospital.
You may remember that I was critical of this doctor too. Now, I want to ask you what one bad doctor has to do with whether its a good idea to vaccinate your kids or not? This is simply a ridiculous point to make in this context. No other way to put it.
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Originally Posted by stevek64
Completely false and I'm surprised you're not aware of this/didn't research my point before responding. Overeating/eating the wrong foods creates obesity in kids/human/any animal for that matter which does indeed affect their immune system as this state creates an inflammation response which is bad news in the body for a host of issues. One doesn't have to get to the point of hospitalization to cause immune system issues as it has been proven even a few pounds of extra weight can throw off hormones, creates an inflammatory response in the body, hampering the immune system:
"This inflammatory state is reflected in increased circulating levels of pro-inflammatory proteins, and it occurs not only in adults but also in adolescents and children. The chronic inflammatory response has its origin in the links existing between the adipose tissue and the immune system. Obesity, like other states of malnutrition, is known to impair the immune function, altering leucocyte counts as well as cell-mediated immune responses."
Therefore, kids who are obese, from eating a less than ideal diet/too muchfood/the wrong kinds of food/lack of activity, they are more apt to catch more colds, flu's, other viruses for starters and put others at risk around them and are more likely pass things that can be serious to other kids in school like the flu and to other people in society. Since their immune system is impaired, as the science literature states, they will be more susceptible to get complications from things that pass easily through the air that can be serious, like the flu.
Your point of "Vaccine mandates exist to reduce the risk of things that can be prevented." is exactly the point I'm making with a decent diet/obesity in kids and in my effort to make a larger point.
Now back to my original point in my previous post. If a state gov can mandate vaccines as mandatory to "reduce the risk of things that can be prevented" as you state, where does it end?.....are you for the gov getting involved in mandating kids not being obese, holding parents accountable for their weight/diet so they aren't more likely to spread viruses around because it's scientifically proven their immune systems are compromised, putting kids at risk around them and just as important, the risk to obese kids own health because they'd be more susceptible to illness, serious illnesses/complications from things like the flu? And to keep these kids out of school until they get down to a weight, deemed appropriate by the gov, to lessen the risk to the kid who is obese and those around them? I see a very slippery slope with this ruling, far away from any pro/con vaccine issue as my example illustrates.
Your point about the connection between poor childhood nutrition and spread of contagious disease in a public school environment is speculative at best.
Here's another point: We can easily control childhood diseases by giving a few vaccinations. It would be difficult to measure and evaluate what diseases are possibly caused by poor childhood nutrition. Therefore, that's something that's virtually impossible to control. So, we focus on what we can reasonably accomplish and we insist on immunizations.
I think you can make an argument that virtually everything in this world is connected in some way to everything else. That doesn't fly in this situation though. The law is all about drawing boundaries. The clear boundary that exists in this case is between preventable contagious disease and other problems.
I've already responded to your slippery slope argument. Let me say there is a difference between reasonable fear and behavior that borders on paranoia. Imagining that giving the state any power at all will result in a total loss of liberties is nutso. The Founding Fathers gave us a system that balanced our rights against the police powers of the state because they realized both were necessary to secure the blessings of liberty, establish justice, and promote domestic tranquility.
Last edited by markg91359; 07-01-2015 at 10:15 PM..
Completely false and I'm surprised you're not aware of this/didn't research my point before responding. Overeating/eating the wrong foods creates obesity in kids/human/any animal for that matter which does indeed affect their immune system as this state creates an inflammation response which is bad news in the body for a host of issues. One doesn't have to get to the point of hospitalization to cause immune system issues as it has been proven even a few pounds of extra weight can throw off hormones, creates an inflammatory response in the body, hampering the immune system:
"This inflammatory state is reflected in increased circulating levels of pro-inflammatory proteins, and it occurs not only in adults but also in adolescents and children. The chronic inflammatory response has its origin in the links existing between the adipose tissue and the immune system. Obesity, like other states of malnutrition, is known to impair the immune function, altering leucocyte counts as well as cell-mediated immune responses."
Therefore, kids who are obese, from eating a less than ideal diet/too muchfood/the wrong kinds of food/lack of activity, they are more apt to catch more colds, flu's, other viruses for starters and put others at risk around them and are more likely pass things that can be serious to other kids in school like the flu and to other people in society. Since their immune system is impaired, as the science literature states, they will be more susceptible to get complications from things that pass easily through the air that can be serious, like the flu.
Your point of "Vaccine mandates exist to reduce the risk of things that can be prevented." is exactly the point I'm making with a decent diet/obesity in kids and in my effort to make a larger point.
Now back to my original point in my previous post. If a state gov can mandate vaccines as mandatory to "reduce the risk of things that can be prevented" as you state, where does it end?.....are you for the gov getting involved in mandating kids not being obese, holding parents accountable for their weight/diet so they aren't more likely to spread viruses around because it's scientifically proven their immune systems are compromised, putting kids at risk around them and just as important, the risk to obese kids own health because they'd be more susceptible to illness, serious illnesses/complications from things like the flu? And to keep these kids out of school until they get down to a weight, deemed appropriate by the gov, to lessen the risk to the kid who is obese and those around them? I see a very slippery slope with this ruling, far away from any pro/con vaccine issue as my example illustrates.
Your point is pointless. In essence you are saying we should not have vaccine mandates because children can have other medical problems, too. It's like saying we should not require that children be belted into car seats because children sometimes drown.
Childhood obesity is indeed a problem. Pediatricians are aware that it is a problem. However, it has nothing to do with vaccination. Obesity will have to be tackled by means other than mandates. However, there have been instances in which obese children were removed from their homes because parents could not follow programs to help their children control their weight and the children were being hospitalized because of issues related to their weight. Such children are not a serious risk to other children, only to themselves. Unvaccinated children are a risk to others. The diseases they can get are potentially dangerous, not just common colds.
[EDIT - this is in response to post 1479 - messed up quoting on my phone ]
There's no "vaccine war". There's science establishing that they work and a small vocal group with agendas that make them "anti-vaxx".
Vaccines prevent serious illness and have minimal risks. Vaccines don't cause autism. That's been studied. Why autism isn't studied more is another distraction - lots of illnesses could use more studies. Herd immunity works. We don't know your medical history, and it appears you don't either so who knows why you get sick.
Please, enough with the grassy knoll. There's no grand conspiracy no matter how badly parents of autistic children want something other than genetics to blame for their child's illness.
Most people trust vaccines, and medicine. And they should. Is it perfect? No, but I'll trust it far more than your celebrities and mommy bloggers.
This is like that fair game "Whack a Mole" with you anti-vaxxers - you don't let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy and for every clear and unequivocal debunking of one of your "theories" you rehash one that was debunked 10 pages ago.
Last edited by tlvancouver; 07-01-2015 at 10:31 PM..
Reason: Quote accidentally deleted - included post I was replying to
I just watched a Frontline presentation on The Vaccine War.
Two points in the War need to be addressed.
1. Why is noone studying Autism?
If the main fear of vaccination is Autism, why are studies done on vaccines limited?
When people did study an MMR and Thimerisol connection to Autism, the studies were limited to specificly the MMR vaccine - they didnt take into account the combined effect of the other 5 vaccines the child recieved along with the MMR vaccine.
If the 6 vaccines recieved that day are to be believed not to have caused the Autism, why is no one looking into what did, so they can dispell the alleged myth?
2. Why does any child need to be bombarded with 6 vaccines in one day? Are 35 vaccins in the first two years really necessary - to fight 14 diseases?
I dont ever remember recieving that many vaccines in one day as a child. Growing up in a time where giving children injections was a routine part of any Doctor visit - I would imagine my family would have had to hogtie me and literally drag me to the car to get me to go knowing that 6 vaccines were on the plate for the visit. The only one I recall liking was polio - because it was oral, and had a sweet taste.
I was vaccinated as a child, and was in a state school system that required vaccination in order to attend public school. Im not sure a child that couldnt be vaccinated would have been allowed to attend the school because of that requirement. Theorhetically, since your child couldnt attend without proof of vaccination, herd immunity was obviously established - yet I still caught chicken pox, measles, german measles, and mumps Thanks to catching them, titers show I am still immune to them, decades later.
If a child with a compromised immune system was at my schools, they would not have been protected by herd immunity. I was vaccinated, with a normal immune system, and wasnt protected, so how could they possibly be?
I also found my comment about not feeling like you have a choice is what puts parents off to vaccination the most to be reinforced by the anti-vax mothers in the program. The anger displayed, rather than making an attempt to reason with a parent in a logical and friendly manner. Simply asking a mother, "How can we work together to achieve what's best?"
I can guess that much of this is based on time. In a world of pre-paid capitation payments (which forces physcians to go for high volume and quick turnover rates for exam rooms), and other health insurance issues, you can see a Doctor for several years these days and he still doesnt remember you, or even know your name. He has your chart handy, but doesnt remember any chronic problems.
When I was a child, my pediatrician not only knew me, but my mother and my grandmother as well. He didnt have to read the chart to call my name, and could spot all of us in the waiting room and know who we were on sight. He spent at least 5 minutes chatting with us before the exam ever began. He had no problem answering questions without ever becoming emmotional, or feeling a need to look down his nose at anyone. Although a very busy office where you may have to wait a long time, he gave the time in a courteous and professional manner
Maybe thats part of the disconnect?
I would say all these things culminate to make people distrusting of vaccines, and the field of medicine in general..
I'm on my kindle right now and it's awkward to use, so I'll only respond to one point. There never was any thimerosal in MMR vaccine. MMR is a live virus vaccine and thimerosal would kill the viruses.
If the main fear of vaccination is Autism, why are studies done on vaccines limited?
You've got to be kidding!
Vaccines and autism have been studied, and studied, and studied, and studied ...
Quote:
When people did study an MMR and Thimerisol connection to Autism, the studies were limited to specificly the MMR vaccine - they didnt take into account the combined effect of the other 5 vaccines the child recieved along with the MMR vaccine.
There was never any thimerosal in the MMR. All three components are live attenuated viruses. Thimerosal cannot be used in such vaccines.
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If the 6 vaccines recieved that day are to be believed not to have caused the Autism, why is no one looking into what did, so they can dispell the alleged myth?
This is called moving the goalposts. The first allegation was MMR caused autism. Then no one could reproduce Wakefield's results (because he faked it) and the anti-vax contingent moved on to thimerosal. Then thimerosal was removed from all childhood vaccines and autism did not go away (which is one colossal piece of evidence that thimerosal never caused autism). So the anti-vax position, which is that vaccines must be the cause of autism, moves on to "well it must be some combination of vaccines" or "if it was not thimerosal it must be something else in the vaccine" - despite being shown that the other components of vaccines are present in larger quantities from normal human metabolism and environmental sources than the minute amounts in vaccines.
There is no evidence that fully vaccinated children are at higher risk to be autistic.
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Why does any child need to be bombarded with 6 vaccines in one day? Are 35 vaccins in the first two years really necessary - to fight 14 diseases?
The current schedule is designed to get children protected against as many diseases as possible as quickly as possible. It has been developed by people who are inimately familiar with all the vaccines, including risks of side effects. Products that include more than one vaccine have to be shown to be safe and effective when given in combination. That you are ignorant of such studies does not mean they have not been done.
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I dont ever remember recieving that many vaccines in one day as a child.
If the vaccines were not even available of course you would not have received them.
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I was vaccinated as a child, and was in a state school system that required vaccination in order to attend public school. Im not sure a child that couldnt be vaccinated would have been allowed to attend the school because of that requirement. Theorhetically, since your child couldnt attend without proof of vaccination, herd immunity was obviously established - yet I still caught chicken pox, measles, german measles, and mumps Thanks to catching them, titers show I am still immune to them, decades later.
If you had measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox you obviously never were vaccinated against those diseases. That suggests the vaccines for those were not available. No one was vaccinated against them. That's why there was no herd immunity.
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If a child with a compromised immune system was at my schools, they would not have been protected by herd immunity. I was vaccinated, with a normal immune system, and wasnt protected, so how could they possibly be?
Such a child would be even more susceptible than you were. There was no herd immunity for those diseases you described because the vaccines for them did not exist.
Quote:
I also found my comment about not feeling like you have a choice is what puts parents off to vaccination the most to be reinforced by the anti-vax mothers in the program. The anger displayed, rather than making an attempt to reason with a parent in a logical and friendly manner. Simply asking a mother, 'How can we work together to achieve what's best?' "
Pediatricians have tried. I have good friends who are kind, empathetic, extremely skilled pediatricians. One described persuading a mother to allow her child to have one vaccine on a particular visit. They then had to decide which one it would be. I think it was rotavirus because the timing on that one is more stringent. She then faced going through the same scenario every time that mother brought her child in. Doctors are tired of that nonsense. They are saying they would rather spend time taking care of families that appreciate their expertise. The parents who refuse vaccines are not amenable to gentle persuasion. They are convinced they know more about vaccines than doctors.
Quote:
I can guess that much of this is based on time. In a world of pre-paid capitation payments (which forces physcians to go for high volume and quick turnover rates for exam rooms), and other health insurance issues, you can see a Doctor for several years these days and he still doesnt remember you, or even know your name. He has your chart handy, but doesnt remember any chronic problems.
When I was a child, my pediatrician not only knew me, but my mother and my grandmother as well. He didnt have to read the chart to call my name, and could spot all of us in the waiting room and know who we were on sight. He spent at least 5 minutes chatting with us before the exam ever began. He had no problem answering questions without ever becoming emmotional, or feeling a need to look down his nose at anyone. Although a very busy office where you may have to wait a long time, he gave the time in a courteous and professional manner
Maybe thats part of the disconnect?
I would say all these things culminate to make people distrusting of vaccines, and the field of medicine in general..
Yes, doctors are busy, and they no longer want to waste time trying to explain to a mother that no, there are not 30,000 injuries and deaths from vaccines reported to VAERS every year. They do not want to have to discuss that there was never any thimerosal in the MMR, that there is overwhelming evidence that vaccines do not cause autism, and dispel the dozens of myths that are on the internet about vaccines, like these:
When a huge number of people were dying of diseases people were happy and proud that "government" insisted on administering vaccines to everyone in order to keep the country from being unstable and, well, DYING. Now people sound like spoiled brats because why exactly? A debunked study and an "I know better because I studied on the internets" attitude.
I'm not really a huge fan of Jerry Brown but I think this was a good call. He's old enough to remember when.
Please close this thread. The legislation passed. The data on the benefits of vaccines has been provided over and over. Everything now is off the topic of the legislation that passed.
The most convincing white paper I've read on the subject of autism links it to the overstimulation in the brain caused by being flopped down in front of the tv.
Remember when we used to build forts, climb trees, ring and run?
Now we have 24/7 cartoons. It ain't like the old days when you went out to play when Soul Train came on. Vaccinations, my pink ass.
That's as wrong as attributing it to vaccinations. You need to read and understand the actual research, not whatever a "white paper" is.
Just another actor past his prime trying to remain relevant.
No to me he cares about what hes saying and as someone in the media he has a chance to air what he feels... doctors and scientists have made big big mistakes and still are.. were all experiements.. so good on you Jim , talk up.. more should... vaccines from way back have caused many illnesses it seems... have a wee read at this and make up your own mind.. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ations&f=false
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I crack up every time people quote medical professionals. They aren't doing themselves any favors. I wouldn't even admit I worked in medicine. Our system is horrid. You here this yearly on the news. I don't even bat an eye anymore. Most of us just cross our fingers when we go to the hospital.
as it has been proven even a few pounds of extra weight can throw off hormones, creates an inflammatory response in the body, hampering the immune system:
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