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Old 05-05-2015, 03:23 PM
 
Location: West Hollywood
3,196 posts, read 2,372,694 times
Reputation: 5262

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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
Listen, I'm not condoning what the cops did. Not one bit. Do I think they murdered him..no. Do I think they are extremely negligent in this matter , yes. That is going off of what I gathered from the news. None of us know all the details and everything we say is pure speculation.
Wrong. There are many facts in this case. That you choose to ignore them does not make them go away.

Quote:
Now that being said, do I think if Freddy Grey had chosen a different path in life he would still be here, yes. It is all about choices , and he made his when he was 19 and hasn't changed since.
And if that girl who got raped at that frat party hadn't gotten drunk she wouldn't have been raped. And if that Foreign exchange student who got shot in America had stayed in his country he would still be alive. And on and on and on. You're blaming the victim, and that is condoning what the cops did. Assigning blame to the victim removes it from the criminal.
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Old 05-05-2015, 03:29 PM
 
24,154 posts, read 17,753,283 times
Reputation: 12931
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbf2324 View Post
I really feel that the fact that the knife was legal or not is almost irrelevant.

I wrote this earlier but false imprisonment charges are extremely uncommon. The argument by Mosby is that there was no probable cause to arrest Gray. I'm not sure if she is making this statement b/c she believes that the knife is legal. But that holds very little weight:

The officers and Gray made eye contact, at that point he ran. If someone runs from an officer in a high crime area you can be DETAINED (not arrested). B/c by running from the officer Gray created enough reasonable suspicion warranting an investigatory stop, and this reasonable suspicion is usually enough to conduct a frisk.

"Officers Miller and Nero put Mr. Gray in a seated position and find a folding knife, which Ms. Mosby said was legal under Maryland law. The officers charged Mr. Gray with illegal possession of a switchblade" http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-timeline.html

Mosby said that they “failed to establish probable cause for Mr. Gray’s arrest as no crime had been committed.” but probable cause means exactly that its probable (likely). Officers are not there to judge if the facts on which the arrest was founded is absolute certainty but instead that there is likely hood that those facts are true

Arrests often go uncharged and charges are often dismissed. Gray arrest record is evident of that. And sometimes defendants are acquitted at trial. These outcomes don't makes the initial arrest illegal.

If officers made a mistake in arresting a civilian then the correction to that mistake would be to have the charges dropped; probable cause give officers this much leeway for "reasonable" mistakes. Its called probable cause for a reason.
what you're saying echoes an article I read this morning.

Quote:
Whether Knife Was Actually Unlawful Is Irrelevant to Probable Cause

First, whether the knife was actually lawful under Maryland law is largely irrelevant for purposes of probable cause.

Probable cause is based on whether a reasonable police officer under the circumstances would have genuinely believed the knife to have been unlawful. If so, the fact that the knife might later be determined to be lawful would certainly be cause to discontinue efforts to prosecute, but it wouldn’t retroactively make the officer’s conduct in making the initial arrest unlawful.
Freddie Gray | Baltimore | Prosecutor Marilyn Mosby
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Old 05-05-2015, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
5,941 posts, read 2,521,375 times
Reputation: 5609
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbf2324 View Post
I really feel that the fact that the knife was legal or not is almost irrelevant.

I wrote this earlier but false imprisonment charges are extremely uncommon. The argument by Mosby is that there was no probable cause to arrest Gray. I'm not sure if she is making this statement b/c she believes that the knife is legal. But that holds very little weight:

The officers and Gray made eye contact, at that point he ran. If someone runs from an officer in a high crime area you can be DETAINED (not arrested). B/c by running from the officer Gray created enough reasonable suspicion warranting an investigatory stop, and this reasonable suspicion is usually enough to conduct a frisk.

"Officers Miller and Nero put Mr. Gray in a seated position and find a folding knife, which Ms. Mosby said was legal under Maryland law. The officers charged Mr. Gray with illegal possession of a switchblade" http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-timeline.html

Mosby said that they “failed to establish probable cause for Mr. Gray’s arrest as no crime had been committed.” but probable cause means exactly that its probable (likely). Officers are not there to judge if the facts on which the arrest was founded is absolute certainty but instead that there is likely hood that those facts are true

Arrests often go uncharged and charges are often dismissed. Gray arrest record is evident of that. And sometimes defendants are acquitted at trial. These outcomes don't makes the initial arrest illegal.

If officers made a mistake in arresting a civilian then the correction to that mistake would be to have the charges dropped; probable cause give officers this much leeway for "reasonable" mistakes. Its called probable cause for a reason.
The Police are supposed to know the difference between a legal pocket knife and a switchblade. If they don't they have no business stopping people or arresting people, and should not have guns or a badge. The excuses your making have absolutely no merit. There was no reason to arrest him and later turn him loose, if that's what was going to happen, as in cases you mention, where all the evidence is still being collected. They had no "Probable" cause, since they could not see a pocket knife in his pants. To even suggest that is absurd. They had no reason to arrest him. They should have released him right there on the spot. Yes, the Officers ARE there to judge the validity of an arrest they intend to make. They can't just arrest everybody they encounter on the suspicion a Crime was committed. Would you want to go to Jail if your coming out of a store with an item, until your receipt was validated by a Court, and the item was cleared by the store? That's why the Police have rules, and we have Laws. This is not supposed to be a Police State, with the tactics that you are suggesting.

If you don't know what a crime is, get another job, where you don't need to know.

A "Mistake" is when you put to much sugar in your coffee, not when you kill a man for no reason.
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Old 05-05-2015, 03:47 PM
 
56 posts, read 52,255 times
Reputation: 43
Ha. well, great minds think alike. jk. That article did a much better job at wording and went into much more detail. Everyone should read it if they get the chance. But I first heard this argument by my employer. She was the one who said its called probable cause for a reason, just makes sense.

Of all the charges this one almost seems like it was done for show.

Though I do believe that the officers should be convicted. RES IPSA LOQUITUR . Man walks/runs before encounter with police. Man spine severed after encounter with police.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:05 PM
 
2,628 posts, read 4,141,199 times
Reputation: 1879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Army_Guy View Post
You know what would've prevented all of this? If he had lived like a law abiding citizen like the majority of people.
No, what could have prevented this is cops who did their jobs correctly.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:19 PM
 
56 posts, read 52,255 times
Reputation: 43
Boris347, I wrote this yesterday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbf2324 View Post
Personally I do think that the officers were grossly negligent and I do hope that at least some of the 6 will be convicted on some of the charges, even if that means just the lesser ones. But the reality is, the system is set up to protect officers.

One example is that Officer Miller is being charged with false imprisonment, which is extremely uncommon. The argument by Mosby is that there was no probable cause to arrest Gray. But...Probable cause means exactly that its probable. It means that the officers reasoning behind a probable cause doesn't have to be correct, simply that there is enough to believe an arrest is warranted. If officers made a mistake in arresting a civilian then the correction to that mistake would be to have the charges dropped; probably cause give officers this much leeway for mistakes.

So the next argument is that "well the knife/blade/w/e was found inside his pocket so they couldn't possible have probably cause if they couldn't see what was in his pocket". And that statement in it of itself is correct. But the officers made eye contact with Gray, at that point he ran. If someone runs from an officer in a high crime area you can be DETAINED. During detainment you can be cuffed and be searched. And I am sure that the defense would say that the blade was found during that detainment and then he was charged with carrying a weapon.

Note that I am making all these arguments based only on the information that was released, specifically from http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-timeline.html

So maybe Mosby has other evidence that can make her case stronger.

The defense can argue that it is a reasonable mistake that the officer did not know that this particular blade is considered legal.

We'll just have to wait till trial...
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Old 05-05-2015, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
5,941 posts, read 2,521,375 times
Reputation: 5609
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbf2324 View Post
. She was the one who said its called probable cause for a reason, just makes sense.
There was no "Probable Cause" since the Police had nothing to base a belief that he had been involved in a crime, was about to commit a crime, or was committing a crime, which is the standard.

They may have a case with "Reasonable" cause to stop him, since he was running, but that's very slim and a stretch Slim, since no one can say why he started to run, there is no Law that forbids running , and there was no knowledge of any crime. If, by some miracle, that was upheld, they would have been in their rights to search him for weapons, for self protection, but that's all. Even so, they would have been required to let him go, right there on the spot, since no illegal weapons where found, and they had no "Probable" cause for even a detention, let alone an Arrest. That's the Law.
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Old 05-05-2015, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
5,941 posts, read 2,521,375 times
Reputation: 5609
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbf2324 View Post
Boris347, I wrote this yesterday.




The defense can argue that it is a reasonable mistake that the officer did not know that this particular blade is considered legal.

We'll just have to wait till trial...
That's a stupid defense and would be laughed out of Court. If you don't know what legal and what's not legal, you have no business arresting anyone for anything, because your not qualified to be a Cop.

That's like arresting some one for speeding when you don't know what the speed limit is.
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Old 05-05-2015, 05:14 PM
 
Location: 23.7 million to 162 million miles North of Venus
5,384 posts, read 4,843,983 times
Reputation: 4276
Quote:
Originally Posted by MordinSolus View Post
And if that girl who got raped at that frat party hadn't gotten drunk she wouldn't have been raped. And if that Foreign exchange student who got shot in America had stayed in his country he would still be alive. And on and on and on. You're blaming the victim, and that is condoning what the cops did. Assigning blame to the victim removes it from the criminal.
I don't know why you have such a fixation on rape, since you often bring it up in matters that have nothing to do with rape. But anyway, your post is incorrect. The two people that you'd mentioned, the girl who got drunk and the Foreign exchange student, should have had a reasonable expectation of doing what they were doing without being harmed or killed while doing it. A person who chooses a criminal lifestyle should have a reasonable expectation of being harmed or killed, by either the cops or by other the other criminals they deal with, or being arrested by the cops.
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Old 05-05-2015, 06:10 PM
 
9,132 posts, read 4,573,428 times
Reputation: 3738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris347 View Post
There was no "Probable Cause" since the Police had nothing to base a belief that he had been involved in a crime, was about to commit a crime, or was committing a crime, which is the standard.

They may have a case with "Reasonable" cause to stop him, since he was running, but that's very slim and a stretch Slim, since no one can say why he started to run, there is no Law that forbids running , and there was no knowledge of any crime. If, by some miracle, that was upheld, they would have been in their rights to search him for weapons, for self protection, but that's all. Even so, they would have been required to let him go, right there on the spot, since no illegal weapons where found, and they had no "Probable" cause for even a detention, let alone an Arrest. That's the Law.
There's a better chance both of your assumptions/conclusions will be wrong. The cops more likely than not had reasonable suspicion to pursue Gray. The knife being legal is questionable at best.
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