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Old 05-09-2015, 12:02 PM
 
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Congrats to them.

With that, this is the problem with these affirmative action type programs, in that many people, even people of their own class, will often view them as getting into these institutions based on affirmative action, not merit itself even though merit itself may have been the only reason. Clarence Thomas has summarized it well regarding his experience.

No one will know what their qualifications were to get accepted, many will just view them as benefactors of affirmative action.
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, not Paris. #MAGA.
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Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Congrats to them.

With that, this is the problem with these affirmative action type programs, in that many people, even people of their own class, will often view them as getting into these institutions based on affirmative action, not merit itself even though merit itself may have been the only reason. Clarence Thomas has summarized it well regarding his experience.

No one will know what their qualifications were to get accepted, many will just view them as benefactors of affirmative action.
At the end of the day, I'm willing to bet that those students are going to be willing to take being "looked down upon" by some in society for all the benefits that come with attending such prestigious schools. And, let's be clear: even to the extent that affirmative action programs were ended and, as a result, underrepresented minority representation at the best of the best schools declined, there would still be a stigma associated with many underrepresented minorities (i.e. the ones who weren't "smart enough to get into the best of the best") from some in society. No matter how you slice it, those students can't "win," but they certainly have a much more solid chance of doing well by going to these prestigious schools.

And, note, while I like Clarence Thomas (I like him a lot), his positions and experiences directly undercut his argument. Indeed, I doubt that Clarence Thomas would give up any of his experiences (whether from working for Senator Danforth to serving as the head of the EEOC to serving as a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals to serving on the Supreme Court) simply because some people "look down on him." Note, many of these positions as certainly tied to his attending Yale Law School; being black certainly helped his admission prospects, whether he had the grades or not to get in otherwise.
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Old 05-09-2015, 03:30 PM
 
387 posts, read 424,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
At the end of the day, I'm willing to bet that those students are going to be willing to take being "looked down upon" by some in society for all the benefits that come with attending such prestigious schools. And, let's be clear: even to the extent that affirmative action programs were ended and, as a result, underrepresented minority representation at the best of the best schools declined, there would still be a stigma associated with many underrepresented minorities (i.e. the ones who weren't "smart enough to get into the best of the best") from some in society. No matter how you slice it, those students can't "win," but they certainly have a much more solid chance of doing well by going to these prestigious schools.

And, note, while I like Clarence Thomas (I like him a lot), his positions and experiences directly undercut his argument. Indeed, I doubt that Clarence Thomas would give up any of his experiences (whether from working for Senator Danforth to serving as the head of the EEOC to serving as a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals to serving on the Supreme Court) simply because some people "look down on him." Note, many of these positions as certainly tied to his attending Yale Law School; being black certainly helped his admission prospects, whether he had the grades or not to get in otherwise.
you're in denial. those kids are smart as hell and are going to go far in life.
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Old 05-09-2015, 04:04 PM
 
3,184 posts, read 2,817,298 times
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Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
At the end of the day, I'm willing to bet that those students are going to be willing to take being "looked down upon" by some in society for all the benefits that come with attending such prestigious schools. And, let's be clear: even to the extent that affirmative action programs were ended and, as a result, underrepresented minority representation at the best of the best schools declined, there would still be a stigma associated with many underrepresented minorities (i.e. the ones who weren't "smart enough to get into the best of the best") from some in society. No matter how you slice it, those students can't "win," but they certainly have a much more solid chance of doing well by going to these prestigious schools.

And, note, while I like Clarence Thomas (I like him a lot), his positions and experiences directly undercut his argument. Indeed, I doubt that Clarence Thomas would give up any of his experiences (whether from working for Senator Danforth to serving as the head of the EEOC to serving as a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals to serving on the Supreme Court) simply because some people "look down on him." Note, many of these positions as certainly tied to his attending Yale Law School; being black certainly helped his admission prospects, whether he had the grades or not to get in otherwise.
Here's the thing though: all of these specific students, even without affirmative action, would have probably gotten into an ivy without it. It almost certainly wouldn't have been all of them (except for the medical technology superstar who didn't benefit regardless and the girl running the charity in East Africa), and it might or might not have been Harvard, but they still would be going to a top-tier school. These are in fact the precise people hurt more than anyone else by affirmative action, because the value of the credential will be substantially reduced in their hands because people won't know whether or not they would have gotten in to a top school on merit, although all of them would have.

Of course, there's always the workaround of throwing your SAT scores on your resume which hopefully someone will tell them about or they'll figure out on their own (which frankly every fresh elite-university grad of every ethnicity who did get there on merit should do given that legacies and recruited athletes are also a thing).

Last edited by ALackOfCreativity; 05-09-2015 at 04:20 PM..
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:01 PM
 
742 posts, read 477,319 times
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Cal Berkeley and to a lesser extent, Stanford are filled with immigrant and foreign students and have been or years and they are every bit as good as those East Coast Schools.
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:14 PM
 
1,363 posts, read 1,727,949 times
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Originally Posted by 404Error View Post
you're in denial. those kids are smart as hell and are going to go far in life.
Doing the same thing other less accomplished Ivy Leaguers will be doing, going into Investment Banking or Management Consulting.
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Mount Pleasant, SC
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My sister is a member the church one of the young men attends with his family. The family is hard working, maintaining a modest but meticulous home, and always inviting people to visit & share a meal. And now academic achievements -- who could ask for more?
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, not Paris. #MAGA.
9,693 posts, read 5,291,005 times
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Originally Posted by 404Error View Post
you're in denial. those kids are smart as hell and are going to go far in life.
I never claimed otherwise.

Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 05-09-2015 at 05:35 PM..
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, not Paris. #MAGA.
9,693 posts, read 5,291,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALackOfCreativity View Post
Here's the thing though: all of these specific students, even without affirmative action, would have probably gotten into an ivy without it. It almost certainly wouldn't have been all of them (except for the medical technology superstar who didn't benefit regardless and the girl running the charity in East Africa), and it might or might not have been Harvard, but they still would be going to a top-tier school. These are in fact the precise people hurt more than anyone else by affirmative action, because the value of the credential will be substantially reduced in their hands because people won't know whether or not they would have gotten in to a top school on merit, although all of them would have.

Of course, there's always the workaround of throwing your SAT scores on your resume which hopefully someone will tell them about or they'll figure out on their own (which frankly every fresh elite-university grad of every ethnicity who did get there on merit should do given that legacies and recruited athletes are also a thing).
These kids will be fine. I'm not concerned about them. The same things that made them attractive to the eight Ivy League schools that accepted them will make them attractive to grad/professional schools and future employers, regardless of whether some in society think the didn't "earn" it. Note, while undoubtedly smart and, I dare say, deserving of admission to these schools on merit alone, I'd be a fool if I argued that their URM status didn't make them all the more attractive; that's the reality for URM's who get into all or one Ivy.
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, not Paris. #MAGA.
9,693 posts, read 5,291,005 times
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Originally Posted by WestGuest View Post
Cal Berkeley and to a lesser extent, Stanford are filled with immigrant and foreign students and have been or years and they are every bit as good as those East Coast Schools.
I'll give you Stanford, but I know several former Berkeley students who transferred to my Ivy League institution who would strongly disagree about that school being (not that I"m arguing that it's a bad school; it's a very fine institution) "every bit as good" as the Ivy League schools.
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