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"Undecided" just means an unproven hypothesis. Without evidence, there can be no proof. I agree that atheism requires faith in the non-existence of a deity. But agnosticism requires nothing at all. And until such time that so much of a sliver of evidence (for OR against) exists, that is really the only hypothesis which makes sense.
That is the reason teens are fleeing religion like never before. There's no other reason. There is as much evidence to support the major religions' angry sky god as there is for unicorns and mermaids.
We're not talking about hypotheses. We're talking about beliefs irregardless of reasons and evidence.
Let's not forget that this being suffers from insane mood swings - if we're to pretend that entire Bible is true and not riddle with contradictions. He loves us all, yet wants some of us to kill the rest of us. He created us in his own image, and yet we're all flawed by nature? Only those who believe in him will be saved, and yet most of the population has no reason at all to believe in him because they were born into a different faith - one that also claims to be the only true way!
This doesn't even get into the madness of preachers who peddle this crap: God loves us, but he's not going to be bothered helping us out. Simply by believing, you're saved, but you're still damned if you don't buy into whatever hate the Church is selling. Faith works miracles - except when it doesn't... which is completely random and somehow our fault... and so on.
Heck, one of the local TV preacher loons was peddling this nonsense last week about how "it's not a lack of faith that prevents miracles, but unbelief." For the love of... they are the SAME THING! It's nothing but splitting hairs and dissembling words, but he managed to get a few week's worth of "teachings" out of that one - now available on DVD for a low payment, of course! Unreal...
Whoa there. If the internet is full of BS, and the church is full of BS, just where are teens getting all this wisdom, so superior (in your opinion) to the older generations?
Furthermore, describing all religious people as single-minded and motivated by hatred and exclusion is just as shallow and ignorant as engaging in prejudice against any other group. In case you missed it, believers have the same First Amendment rights as you. In fact, they get darn near top billing in that oft-mistakenly-quoted section of the Constitution. I call your attention to the bolded section:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]"
Now, either the Founders were motivated by hatred and ignorance, as you would imply, or they perceived some intrinsic value in guaranteeing the right of people to freely exercise their religious belief. Since our Constitution and our acceptance of religion as part of our national cultural heritage have persevered for over two centuries, I'm going to have to favor the First Amendment over the opinions of those who have such hatred in their hearts and contempt in their minds for their fellow citizens who choose to be Christians.
Actually, many, if not most, of the Founders were deists or spiritualists or were members of minority sects like Quakers, Catholics, Methodists, etc who were forced to attend and pay tithes to the "official" church. That's what the Founding Fathers found repugnant: being forced to attend a church and support a religion that they didn't believe in while not being allowed to worship in their own churches.
I find it very interesting that you conveniently pretend that the establishment clause isn't important when it's the most important part of the religious prohibition while you blather on about "our national cultural heritage". The prohibition of religious establishment comes first because the Founders didn't want any religion being given official sanction, meaning they expressly forbid any kind of national church, something that Christians have been attempting to subvert for the last 226 years, and especially conservative Christians for the last half century.
This is actually the 'dunce' definition of atheism espoused usually by proponents of the New Atheism who don't understand the problems with it, nor the history behind it and don't have the appraisal skills to subject it to proper criticism.
It has an interesting history. Antony Flew first coined the alternative definition in the 1970s as 'negative atheism' - a counterpart to 'positive atheism' (the correct philosophical definition: 'theism is false' or 'God doesn't exist').
It was quickly shown to be problematic such that Flew would later say in an interview that he wished 'as if' atheism would be defined this alternative way, implying that the correct, accepted definition was different.
In the video below Christopher Hitchens tries, and fails, to defend this alternative definition after the problems with it are shown to him. He eventually concedes (at the 6:40 mark) that atheism is the proposition that "(God) does not exist".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousseff
You can see the full debate here:
It's pretty clear Hitchens goes from espousing a kind of non-committal where he simply "has no reason to believe that God exists" ('no reason to believe' in knowledge theory is the same as 'no belief' and avoids a burden of proof) to making the explicit claim that 'God does not exist'.
If you can't see that or don't understand it, that says more about you than it does the epistemology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousseff
It is the same, by the Law of the Excluded Middle in logic. Let me expound a little more clearly on what your friend is talking about: Position: I do not believe that God exists Proposition: I do not believe that the statement 'God exists' is true Law of the Excluded Middle: I do not believe that the statement 'God does not exist' is false Contraposition: I believe that the statement 'God does not exist' is true
All of the above have the same underlying meaning. You're confusing differences of linguistics with differences of meaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousseff
Conflating knowledge and belief doesn't make any difference.
If you don't believe in the existence of faeries, then you believe that "faeries do not exist" by the law of the excluded middle.
That holds true irrespective of whether you know or don't know that faeries exist.
You can do all this babbling but you can't find a dictionary or use google?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us
Since we cannot prove a lack of existence and sufficient evidence has not been presented to me, I hold no positive claim that a god does or does NOT exist.
ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/ noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics 1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/ noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics 1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
That's correct. He's free to call himself whatever he likes though.
ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/ noun
noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics 1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
It makes me both.
Ever heard the term "Agnostic-Atheist"? I just shorten to Atheist.
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