Tom wise starts #White lies matter, a campaign to raise awareness of false claims about people of color.

[smart-dumb-kid]

Hmm, those first few tweets listed play with numbers horribly by comparing to years rather than comparing to overall population. The consistent drop in fertility rates across all demographics makes year to year comparisons mostly invalid.
Teen births have consistently dropped across all demographics, but the drop has been much slower for Hispanics and African-Americans, and that is the "growing crisis".
Similar, for the nonmarital births, he uses raw numbers (ignoring the dropping overall fertility rate) instead of using percentage of births to unmarried mothers, which has rocketed upwards in all demographics but fastest among African-Americans.

I fail to see how he is "playing with the numbers" when his interpretation of the numbers support the end he is using it for, which is debunking false narratives that the black community isn't improving. While it is true that blacks people are improving at a slower rate, this isn't surprising; the poorest demographics tend to lag behind the wealthier ones. As a Hispanic, you should understand this very well. As far as the sky rocketing percentage of children born to unmarried mothers, using numbers can help clarify this, which you choose to ignore. It stands to reason that the overall drop in fertility rates can skew the percentages if married women are having less children, which appears to be the case

More married women in U.S. aren't having children - latimes

I would link to the cdc, but understanding that is beyond me. It would take to long.

It should be extremely obvious what is going on with the weapon one.

Please explain.

The murder rate is a similar problematic tweet. Again, he compares by years instead of by population. Yes, the rate is down from previous decades. But the rate is still dramatically higher than other demographic groups. (And among teens, actually higher than 1950 and 1960, but lower than every decade since.)

Again, you're misinterpreting the intent of using the numbers. Percentages paint a picture of stagnation that allows people to say that black people aren't attempting to address the crime in their neighborhood, when infact they are, as the numbers show. The dramatically higher murder rate can be explained by poverty and other factors, but this is irrelevant to Tim's message, which is the numbers of murders for black people is dropping.

I am Hispanic. You will notice that many of these numbers are equally bad or worse for Hispanics. But there is no Hispanic Tim Wise out there. Instead, you see dramatic actions being taken against these problems by Hispanic communities, leading to headlines like these:

This is honestly a silly statement. I always considered Hispanics to be in a similar boats to blacks, and the numbers showed this isn't to far off. Sensationalist headlines are not worthy of attention, numbers are. Please don't use them to undermine the topic at hand when you damn well know every race is improving in these regards, but both Hispanics and blacks are lagging behind

[smart-dumb-kid]

Originally Posted by OverTaxedInNY

This is the part that somehow escapes anyone that cries racism/stereotyping. Apparently stereotypes are completely baseless claims made up by people with spectacular imaginations

Typically based on anecdotes that people believe, which aren't to far off from baseless claims. Actually they're regarded as such in respectable debates, so they might as well be baseless claimless (stereotypes, I mean).

[smart-dumb-kid]

Originally Posted by bus man

Why is this so hard to understand? Even assuming that these "facts" are 100% correct, so what? Carrying a dangerous weapon does not, in and of itself, make a person dangerous. Conversely, one can be extremely dangerous without wielding any weapons other than their fists, or a bottle, or a piece of wood.

This is hard for me to understand as their is a leap in logic to assert that the unarmed person is more dangerous then the armed. Why are black students perceived as more dangerous when they don't even have weapons as often.Answer this question, and I can understand this completely. Otherwise, I keep thinking that blacks are assumed to be more dangerous by default on virtue of who they are alone, not on anything concrete.

If someone is perceiving unarmed black students to be more dangerous than armed white ones, perhaps this is because they have been given reason, through observation or experience, to hold this belief.

So... preconceived notions against black people allows society to seem them as more dangerous? This is merely prejudice and isn't founded in any solid logic.

[smart-dumb-kid]

Originally Posted by uggabugga

no need to read it again. timmy proposed 'lie' A, then tries to used factoid B to dismiss it, when they have nothing to do with each other. additionally, his factoid 'B' is laughingly based on self-reporting opinon poll, not reality.

So a self reporting poll is based on people contributing their opinions, yet it isn't grounded in reality? More importantly factiod B is related to Lie A.

if a person or people carry weapons but rarely if ever use them, do you honestly think they are a greater threat than another group who use them often? or who use hands, feet, or anything else available as weapons?

Was stumped on this one for awhile, but I think I can give a satisfactory response. It is a known facts that most of the mass shootings in this country are performed by white people. It is also a known fact that white people are more likely to carry drugs. Seems irrelevant at first, but let's tie this in to the current argument. Data shows that black people commit more crime relative to whites and Asians, especially the youth. This stigma understandably transfers to the youth in schools. However, knowing what we know about white people, why isn't skepticism of the violence of white youth higher when they carry around weapons more and are known in the media to use them? Drug users aren't known to be the nicest people ever, and thus this should negatively impact how safe white students appear to be but it doesn't. There is an obvious discrepancy here.

he should seriously consider a name change.

If you can't realize that user just went on a racist tangent, then you truly are a troll.

[bus man]

Originally Posted by smart-dumb-kid

This is hard for me to understand as their is a leap in logic to assert that the unarmed person is more dangerous then the armed. Why are black students perceived as more dangerous when they don't even have weapons as often.Answer this question, and I can understand this completely. Otherwise, I keep thinking that blacks are assumed to be more dangerous by default on virtue of who they are alone, not on anything concrete.



So... preconceived notions against black people allows society to seem them as more dangerous? This is merely prejudice and isn't founded in any solid logic.

I don't mean to sound insulting, but why is this so difficult for you to understand? Weapons, by themselves, are not dangerous. It's what the holder of that weapon chooses to do with it that makes it dangerous or not.

Consider this example from very recent history. During the latter stages of the Baltimore riots, you had crowds of mostly unarmed rioters facing off against groups of heavily-armed National Guard troops and police. If I had suffered the misfortune of being present during this event, I would have felt FAR safer among the armed law-enforcement officers than I would have among the unarmed rioters. One group was trying to protect the larger society, the other group was trying to harm it.

Any group of people can be dangerous or not dangerous, with or without weapons. As for perception . . . well, isn't that what we're talking about? I apologize if I missed it, but did you present verifiable statistics that show that armed white students are more dangerous (and how is that defined?) than unarmed black ones? Or are we discussing the perception of which group is more dangerous? I was under the impression that we are discussing perceptions ("preconceived notions" if you like). Are these perceptions founded in logic? By direct observation of the groups involved? Or by nothing but blind prejudice?

[marigolds6]

Originally Posted by smart-dumb-kid

I fail to see how he is "playing with the numbers" when his interpretation of the numbers support the end he is using it for, which is debunking false narratives that the black community isn't improving. While it is true that blacks people are improving at a slower rate, this isn't surprising; the poorest demographics tend to lag behind the wealthier ones. As a Hispanic, you should understand this very well. As far as the sky rocketing percentage of children born to unmarried mothers, using numbers can help clarify this, which you choose to ignore. It stands to reason that the overall drop in fertility rates can skew the percentages if married women are having less children, which appears to be the case.

The end he is using is a strawman though. "The black community isn't improving" is not the narrative being played out. "The black community is falling behind and not catching up" is the narrative we see over and over. Basically that the tide is rising, but rising so slow in African-American communities that, despite improve, the gap widens. Hispanics, Southeast Asians, and other impoverished ethnicities are closing wide gaps, like in the articles I linked.

Originally Posted by smart-dumb-kid

(Re:It should be extremely obvious what is going on with the weapon one.) Please explain.

Rifles were not excluded, and the dates of the survey correspond strongly with early deer season. White kids hunt in pretty enormous numbers compared to all other racial and ethnic demographics. Basically, the survey included hunting as an at-risk behavior factor.

Originally Posted by smart-dumb-kid

Again, you're misinterpreting the intent of using the numbers. Percentages paint a picture of stagnation that allows people to say that black people aren't attempting to address the crime in their neighborhood, when infact they are, as the numbers show. The dramatically higher murder rate can be explained by poverty and other factors, but this is irrelevant to Tim's message, which is the numbers of murders for black people is dropping.

Tim's message is the wrong message. That is the point of what I am saying.

Originally Posted by smart-dumb-kid

(Re: "There is no Hispanic Tim Wise") This is honestly a silly statement. I always considered Hispanics to be in a similar boats to blacks, and the numbers showed this isn't to far off. Sensationalist headlines are not worthy of attention, numbers are. Please don't use them to undermine the topic at hand when you damn well know every race is improving in these regards, but both Hispanics and blacks are lagging behind

My point here was that Tim Wise is saying, "There is no problem, there are only lies and misconceptions." This is a theme repeatedly frequently by African-American leaders. Hispanic leaders, in contract, are saying "There is a problem and it must be fixed." That's why Hispanics are improving at rates that will see leave them no longer lagging behind.

[bus man]

Originally Posted by smart-dumb-kid

It is a known facts that most of the mass shootings in this country are performed by white people.

Agreed. But it is also a known fact that mass shootings by white people occur at just a teeny tiny fraction of the rate that random street violence committed by black people does.

Originally Posted by smart-dumb-kid

Data shows that black people commit more crime relative to whites and Asians, especially the youth. This stigma understandably transfers to the youth in schools. However, knowing what we know about white people, why isn't skepticism of the violence of white youth higher when they carry around weapons more and are known in the media to use them?

Here's what you just said: data shows that black people commit more crimes relative to whites and Asians; therefore we should be more worried about dangerous white people. Are you not at all seeing the logical fallacy here?

[LoveMysterious]

Originally Posted by OverTaxedInNY

This is the part that somehow escapes anyone that cries racism/stereotyping. Apparently stereotypes are completely baseless claims made up by people with spectacular imaginations

Are you arguging that stereotypes are ture???????????? I can't believe an adult would think like this.

[uggabugga]

Originally Posted by smart-dumb-kid

So a self reporting poll is based on people contributing their opinions, yet it isn't grounded in reality?

correct. the respondents can say anything they want, whether it's factual or not. that's not grounded in reality in the slightest.

More importantly factiod B is related to Lie A.

no it isn't. I already went through in detail why it's not, as have others.

Was stumped on this one for awhile, but I think I can give a satisfactory response. It is a known facts that most of the mass shootings in this country are performed by white people.

ok. since white people comprise the vast majority of the population, that shouldn't surprise you.

It is also a known fact that white people are more likely to carry drugs.

is it? cite your source.

Seems irrelevant at first, but let's tie this in to the current argument. Data shows that black people commit more crime relative to whites and Asians, especially the youth. This stigma understandably transfers to the youth in schools. However, knowing what we know about white people, why isn't skepticism of the violence of white youth higher when they carry around weapons more and are known in the media to use them? Drug users aren't known to be the nicest people ever, and thus this should negatively impact how safe white students appear to be but it doesn't. There is an obvious discrepancy here.

how do we know white people carry around weapons more? what kind of weapons? do you consider pocketknives weapons? if they don't use these 'weapons' why should we fear them?

I don't get your bit about drug users, please clarify.

If you can't realize that user just went on a racist tangent, then you truly are a troll.

him making an excellent point doesn't make him a racist, nor does it make me a troll.

[smart-dumb-kid]

Originally Posted by marigolds6

The end he is using is a strawman though. "The black community isn't improving" is not the narrative being played out. "The black community is falling behind and not catching up" is the narrative we see over and over. Basically that the tide is rising, but rising so slow in African-American communities that, despite improve, the gap widens. Hispanics, Southeast Asians, and other impoverished ethnicities are closing wide gaps, like in the articles I linked.

Thank you for keeping this discussion nice and civil. I really appreciate it. I want to apologise if I came across as antagonistic earlier. With that said, I don't understand what you mean by tide. Blacks has unique factors that inhibits progress that cause slower progression then other races (with the unique factor being the historically awful relations between whites and black). The *gap* between progress can be accounted for by this, but this gap still doesn't support the narrative that the black community is "not catching up". The data shows they are, but more slowly. I would also like to note that Hispanics (non white Hispanics) are actually progressing slower than black people (with dropout rates atleast), according to this source
U.S. high school dropout rate reaches record low, driven by improvements among Hispanics, blacks | Pew Research Center

And one with actual integrity, the government

Fast Facts

Rifles were not excluded, and the dates of the survey correspond strongly with early deer season. White kids hunt in pretty enormous numbers compared to all other racial and ethnic demographics. Basically, the survey included hunting as an at-risk behavior factor

Hmm.... it would be erroneous to assume that guns aren't a dangerous weapon simply because they're used for recreational purposes. Many in this country sees weapons as dangerous, no matter the intent, and rather they be regulated more closely. Rather it is right or wrong (and I personally believe that alot of the white kids aren't at risk as you pointed out), these factors into the perception of the student body. Black students, as already pointed out, are considered to be more dangerous because of perceptions, but white students don't suffer the same negative press, despite owning more guns and being shown by the media to use them destructively. This shows a discrepancy in thinking as they could very likely be as dangerous as black students, but public opinions just doesn't match up.

Tim's message is the wrong message. That is the point of what I am saying.

It could very well be, and i'm tempted to believe, but only parts of this is wrong, and perhaps only the part about perception of black students being more violent. Using numbers to debunk a false narrative isn't a stawman, as he isn't addressing a different argument. He is stating that the claims that the black community isn't improving is false, which is true, and using percentages to undermine his argument is merely a stawman in itself, as the goal for improvement shouldn't be relative.


[QUOTEMy point here was that Tim Wise is saying, "There is no problem, there are only lies and misconceptions."[/quote]

I do not know of tim's prior writings, but here, he is not saying this. He is saying that the problems in the black community are indeed improving, but lies and misconceptions make it appear as if it wasn't.

This is a theme repeatedly frequently by African-American leaders. Hispanic leaders, in contract, are saying "There is a problem and it must be fixed." That's why Hispanics are improving at rates that will see leave them no longer lagging behind.

I already posted data that partially debunks the latter. Hispanics are improving slower than blacks when it comes to drop out rates. I also don't know what the african American leadership is saying, but I honestly doubt they are completely ignoring the problems in their communities as you state, when they are constantly mentioning them and seeing improvements as a result.