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I am in support of gay marriage, but to answer the question about it being none of Christians' business: Christians, by definition, are supposed to spread Jesus' teachings and encourage others to live like Him. So if they stand by idly and don't try to say anything at all, then they're not doing their job. Now as to how they do that, I know that can get ugly, quickly. And that is sad.
You really are topic hoping around a lot here. I do apologize for the length of my replies, but you have jumped from proving a negative about god to commentary about people threatening other people in very few posts.
It is not right for anyone to threaten anyone. This has nothing to do with Christians or homosexuals per se. It happens in any public debate in any issue, there is always some bad apples on each side who resort to insidious and awful tactics. If you have identified someone threatening someone.... and I am not sure to what you actually refer as you did not mention it specifically......... then I would quite likely be against it regardless of which side on any debate was doing it.
Sure. And current legal reality is that marriage is a state and secular institute, nothing to do with religion at all, and so god based opinions on the matter are less than irrelevant. If a religious person does not want to have a gay marriage, I would never require them to. And if a religious person does not want to perform ceremonies in their club house.... being as they are a ceremony service provider.... then I personally believe they should not have to do so (alas the law may suggest otherwise if it ever does rule them to be a service provider which is what they are).
So yes I am all for acknowledging the legal realities here. Would that the anti homosexual religious lobby were!
I think we can do without the personal attacks and insults here thank you very much. Insults demean only the insulter, never the target. So do not let yourself down any further given you have been doing so well so far.
I have absolutely no doubt that many of them do make sense yes. Why would they not? Some do, some do not. Some probably made more sense at the time than they do now. I would not doubt any of those things.
But those of us who realize there is no actual evidence on offer for a god realize the text in question is just another text out of a wealth of moral philosophy that our species has produced. Little in the text in question is new or revolutionary really. The Golden Rule espoused by the Nazerene for example predates him by quite some time.
And when one realizes that one realizes that when formulating a morality or public legal code, we have a WEALTH of moral and legal philosophies to draw upon, evaluate, amalgamate and assimilate in producing it. Lots of it will make sense. Lots of it will not. Lots of it will date to modernity. Lots of with will be outdated and useless to us in a modern world.
Except if you engage some of your time with actually looking at the studies on this you will find that Anal Sex is far more a minority practice in the gay community than you might think, and far more common in the heterosexual community than you might admit.
So if you want to have a conversation about homosexuality I am willing to do so. If you want to have a conversation about the merits and demerits of anal sex I am more than happy to do that too. If you want to conflate the two erroneously however I will be compelled to correct your error at every turn.
However I must correct you on a second issue further to that. This is a thread about Gay Marriage. And marriage is not synonymous with what the people do, or do not, engage in sexually in the bedroom. So not only is your conflation of homosexuality with anal sex a glaring error, it is not even relevant from the outset in the first place. We do not mediate the morality of marriage based on the kinds of sex people engage in, if any at all, and a gay marriage union has as little to do with sex as a heterosexual marriage involving vanilla sex.... BDSM and crazy Scat sex.... or in fact a union that is entirely asexual in any way. Sex simply has nothing to do with the topic at all.
Again I have no idea of why you feel this is relevant. The same thing happens to women in times of war, and it was not that long ago that the scandals about the activities of american men towards women in Iraq hit the head lines. It is a sad and lamentable fact that people get raped in war. I wish it were not so, but it has quite literally nothing whatsoever to do with this thread, or this discussion.
No, it does not, because the two are not mutually exclusive at all. Homosexuality is a relatively minor statistical occurrence. For it to be biologically significant at any level statistically it would have to be remarkably more common than it is now, and there is no reason to consider that likely to happen any time soon or in fact EVER. Not to mention the fact that reproduction numbers and population growth is FAR from a concern our species has at this time.
And, at the risk of you insulting me by throwing out words like rude and arrogant again, would I be far wrong if I admit to expecting your evidence for this phenomenon will be as copious as your evidence thus far that there is a god? That is to say.... none at all backed up by some inane claims that I can not prove reincarnation does not occur or that science does not know everything?
Or am I to be pleasantly surprised that I have for the first time met a proponent of the phenomenon that can actually substantiate it in any way whatsoever?
I did not mean to insult you I was pointing out that I felt some of your comments were insulting to me. It is good to know that a lot of gay men do not engage in anal sex because I think it is bad for them and spreads disease. I had thought they all pretty much did it. I have wanted to ask the question of gay men on here if they could have a relationship with another man without engaging in that form of sex but felt kind of awkward about discussing it. I guess also my reaction is an emotional one. It just looks kind of strange to see two men or two women together romantically. A little shocking . It is hard to get used to it for me. I also have tried to figure out why the old testament included gay male sex as wrong along with the other rules that I can figure out the reason for . There has to be a reason. I do believe sodomy has something to do with it. I also love the golden rule you mention. That is what I mean by live and let live. I am not a born again Christian nor in many ways very religious. I have mixed feeling about gay marriage both for it and against it at the same time.
About reincarnation. Why do I believe in the possibility of it? For me it makes sense. It fills in the pieces of the puzzle to explain the unexplainable in life. For instance. Why do people have strange phobias that seem to make no sense,like a fear of enclosed spaces or a fear of snakes? Perhaps they had a bad experience in a past life. Why are some people who are good and kind suffering bad things? Maybe it is Karma from a past life? Have you ever met someone and felt an instant like or dislike for them or just instantly get along with them and become close friends ? Maybe you knew each other well in past lives, And why do some people feel drawn to different time periods in history ? Could they have experienced a past life there? And what about child prodigies? Children who can at very young ages play an instrument like a master? They may have played it in a past life. Have you ever been to a place you have never been to before and felt like you know it well? Some people have. Some people under hypnosis have even been able to speak another language fluently. There are also children who have at a young age claimed to have lived before, claimed to remember their past lives and seemed to have knowledge of things they have never been taught , and with some their claims of who they were can be factually verified. I find it very interesting.
I did not mean to insult you I was pointing out that I felt some of your comments were insulting to me.
And yet I never once called you names like "rude" or "arrogant". If you are offended by me discussing the arguments with you then I am unable to help you with this. If you have over sensitive dispositions related to discourse then I am afraid you will have to deal with these without my help.
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Originally Posted by vanguardisle
It is good to know that a lot of gay men do not engage in anal sex because I think it is bad for them and spreads disease.
All sex has the potential to spread disease. And the fact is that people are going to engage in sex with other people they are attracted to. And regardless of their sexuality this is often going to include anal and oral sex. Heterosexual and Homosexual.
This is not going to change any time soon, so the best we can do is educate people on awareness of sexuality, disease and pregnancy and the dangers of unsafe sex and promiscuity. Preferably from an early age. And ensure that preventative measures are available and accessible and affordable, and treatment too for those unlucky enough to contract any of it.
But the fact remains none of this has anything to do with homosexuality at all.... let alone gay marriage which is what the thread is about. Sexually transmitted diseases are a HUMAN issue, not an issue of any particular sexuality or any particular sex act.
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Originally Posted by vanguardisle
I had thought they all pretty much did it. I have wanted to ask the question of gay men on here if they could have a relationship with another man without engaging in that form of sex but felt kind of awkward about discussing it.
There are quite a few studies on the subject and while the %s before studies vary somewhat from study to study on how many homosexuals (and heterosexuals for that matter) actually engage in anal sex..... they are consistent in being much lower than the average Joe on the street would expect. Because like with your good self.... for the average Joe the two things have simply become synonymous in their heads. They think "homosexual" and their mind instantly links it to anal sex.
Quite a few homosexual men do not engage in it at all, ever. While the terms "top" and "bottom" are used to refer to gay men who engage in the receipt or performance of it, but not the other. So even those who do practice anal sex, do not do so mutually. Some will perform it, some will have it performed on them, and some will do both.
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Originally Posted by vanguardisle
I guess also my reaction is an emotional one. It just looks kind of strange to see two men or two women together romantically.
That is a respectable admission indeed and I thank you for it. I warrant that a vast quantity of people against homosexuality share that sentiment and position but would not admit it. They like to pretend quite often there are religious or statistical arguments against it. They want to intellectually validate their bias. Few of them would have the intellectual honesty to openly admit their position is little more than emotional bias and subjective. If I were to be the type of personal to maintain a mental scale of estimation of other people, this honesty would certainly have moved you up several notches on it.
It is indeed strange to see, it stands out. But so do many things that are not normal or common for us to see. Explore for a moment your mental and emotional reaction to seeing a limbless man in a wheelchair coming down the street before you. Our human brain is conditions to react stronger to things we are not conditioned to seeing. Anomalies stand out to us.
The step towards wisdom I feel is noticing that reaction in yourself and acknowledging "Its not them.... its me" and we all struggle with that maturation at some point in our life. Some earlier than others I warrant.
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Originally Posted by vanguardisle
I also love the golden rule you mention. That is what I mean by live and let live.
I love the intention behind the golden rule. And as I said it predates the Nazerene by no small amount of time. But the rule itself is clearly limited. It is, for example, only as good as the person uttering it. "Treat others as you want to be treated" loses some of its power for example if uttered by a massochist. In fact I could, with about as many words as you have fingers and toes, use the Golden Rule to justify murdering Homosexuals if you like.
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Originally Posted by vanguardisle
About reincarnation. Why do I believe in the possibility of it? For me it makes sense.
Right there a warning light has to go off. "Making sense" in no way validates or lends credence to a claim. At All. Many many things in this world make sense but are false. Many many things make no sense at all but are demonstrably true. Especially things that tax the human understanding of numbers for example.
For example it makes NO sense at all that to have a 50% probability that two people in a room share the same birthday (date not year) you only need 23 people. It messes with the brain. It makes no sense at all to us. Yet it is demonstrably true.
So I am afraid "I believe it because it makes sense" errs towards being meaningless white noise to me and in no way validates the belief in an after life or reincarnation. It might be a narrative that has explanatory power for you in answering some puzzles or questions you might have in life.... but that validates it not a jot.
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Originally Posted by vanguardisle
Why do people have strange phobias that seem to make no sense,like a fear of enclosed spaces or a fear of snakes?
Many reasons which I could go into, but I am not even sure I agree that those two examples make no sense. There is very good reason to have a fear of such things. They are often related quite closely with pain, poison and death. Seem quite healthy things to be phobic of in my book.
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Originally Posted by vanguardisle
Why are some people who are good and kind suffering bad things?
Why would they not? It is an impartial universe with no mind. It is not going to discern between morally good or bad people. There is nothing to explain there. Your reincarnation narrative is not so much explaining it, as making it emotionally palatable to you. Which is a different thing altogether. That both good and bad things happen in relatively equal measure to both good and bad people is perfectly explainable and expected in an impartial and mindless universe.
In fact every single thing you just listed to me might be "consistent" with a narrative of Reincarnation but they are in no way evidence of it. You could just as easily make up another Fantasy narrative that would explain those things JUST as well but will be JUST as much fantasy unsubstantiated nonsense. Name one thing on your list for example that would not be explained just as well by us being in "The Matrix"? There is not one there. But you, like many humans, have simply become emotionally invested in one unsubstantiated narrative, to the expense of the others.
I am in support of gay marriage, but to answer the question about it being none of Christians' business: Christians, by definition, are supposed to spread Jesus' teachings and encourage others to live like Him. So if they stand by idly and don't try to say anything at all, then they're not doing their job. Now as to how they do that, I know that can get ugly, quickly. And that is sad.
But these "others" have the same right to religious freedom that Christians do.
Yes I have agreed born against Christians can go too far, but it is also not right for gays to threaten Christians. You can argue for or against religion all you want but you must face the current legal reality. These states did not want gay marriage, even California didnt want it, they voted against it over and over again and now that it is here there will be resentment . Cant you see many states are dangerously close to state nullification on this law? There are people quitting their jobs , people closing their businesses. You cannot change their minds. Not everyone will accept you or agree with you in life. Do not force it.
Well my personal opinions about gay marriage will suprise you if you want to know them ( though I personally think you are acting a little arrogant and rude to deserve to read them ) . I have never really wrote about them before. I have read the passages in the old testament against gay unions. Did you know there are not just 10 commandments those were just the first ones there are many more about 613 and if you read them many of the laws are about protecting the family, about kindness to animals, not slandering or libeling others, about health and sanitary things. They actually make sense for a civilized society to adhere to, and a few of our own laws on the books today derive from them. That is why I think the laws against gay sex derive from this same common sense. Gay men engage in a form of sex (anal sex) that is proven to spread disease and weaken and harm the body. I have read that many gay men can suffer health problems later in life because of it. Without being graphic I think it makes no sense to have something going in to a place where waste products are meant to come out. The tears and rips can cause stds and spread hiv more then any other form of sex. It is unclean, unhealthy , and harmful. I think that is why the bible is against it more then any other reason. I also think in those days men would rape other men in war to humiliate them and the bible disagrees with that also. I see no mention in the bible against a woman lying with another woman only two men that is why I believe it is sodomy the bible is against. And of course because procreation continues the human race and you need a man and a woman for procreation, it makes sense to encourage that form of a married union over any other does it not?
My other belief about homosexuality is unusual. It is more a theory. I believe in the possibility of reincarnation. Therefore I think many who are homosexual and transgender have lived before in the body of the opposite gender for instance a man who has lived many lives as a woman reincarnates in this life as a man but still experiences all the same feelings he had when he was a woman. He is still attracted to men , and is still in many ways feminine. The same for a woman who was a man in a past life. She is still attracted to woman and still in many ways masculine. I also think the reason transgenders are not comfortable in their gender they were born into is because they have been the opposite gender in past lives and want to return back to it. That is my theory.
This may come as a shock to you but overwhelming public opinion was in support of marriage equality.
As far as 'gays' threatening Christians - how did they do that? Normally it's some so-called Christian business owner who puts an offensive sign out side their business OR verbally proclaims their bigotry to one and ALL; and then has the audacity to blame the gays when they go out of business. Tell me, if gays only make up 1 or 2% of the population as Christians so love to argue - how can they alone shut down a business? That's right. They can't. LOTS of straight people are on the side of equality for ALL.
Here's another tidbit for you - lots of straight people engage in anal sex. *Poof* There goes your theory.
I hope we've established (above) that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and that the default position is for the extraordinary claim to be discounted until such time as the person making the extraordinary claim produces sufficient evidence. And saying "the Bible" is really no evidence at all.
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Originally Posted by Ringo1
LOTS of straight people are on the side of equality for ALL.
In fact, I can't really think of any acquaintances I have by choice (i.e. not family and not work-related and not just neighbors) who were not on the side of equality for all.
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Originally Posted by Ringo1
Here's another tidbit for you - lots of straight people engage in anal sex. *Poof* There goes your theory.
Oh heck yah! My girlfriend and I make it a regular part of our sexual enjoyment. In fact, after my vasectomy (when you're trying to ejaculate a bunch of times to clean out the pumps but you're still fertile), we really got into it. She does me, I do her.
Oh heck yah! My girlfriend and I make it a regular part of our sexual enjoyment. In fact, after my vasectomy (when you're trying to ejaculate a bunch of times to clean out the pumps but you're still fertile), we really got into it. She does me, I do her.
That so-called overwhelming public opinion wasn't reflected in public votes or elected representatives votes.
You should stick with the standard argument that people's rights shouldn't be voted on.
It WAS reflected in polling that was done, though. Do you REALLY think any politician would have come out in favor of it had it not polled favorably????
Well the founding fathers of the Constitution believed in a G-d and made references to it. You cannot prove there is not one and that is why people who believe a certain way must have their religious views protected under the law. And to be honest it is dangerous not to. More wars have been fought in the name of religion over the centuries, more people have died over religion then for any other reason.That is the reason the pilgrims first came to America to be able to worship their religion. You do not have to agree with it you just have to respect the views of others and allow them to be who they want to be.When the gay rights people threaten to take that away there will be big trouble. Leave the religious colleges alone, force yourselves to walk away from a fight if a caterer will not cater your wedding, let churches do what they feel compelled to do. That is what I wanted to say. Do not start trouble and there will not be any trouble. When it comes to religious beliefs, live and let live. That is what this country is founded on respect for the beliefs of others.
Sounds familiar. Separate but equal.
Yeah.
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In fact, after my vasectomy (when you're trying to ejaculate a bunch of times to clean out the pumps but you're still fertile), we really got into it. She does me, I do her.