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The woman shot by an illegal immigrant in San Francisco involved a stolen handgun, it came from a "federal agent". Bureau of Land Management no less.
And if you listen to some of the "in the know" (aka loony) people Donald Trump's people planted the gun and pointed this poor innocent undocumented worker at it to fire up people's anger with Mexicans...
You cant get accurate stats by comparing states when it comes to gun violence and homicides. Some states, have more large city ghettos than others. If you want accurate data, you have to break it down by city.
There is no question that inner city ghettos are responsible for the bulk of the homicide stats. This is undisputed except by folks that are so biased they won't accept even FBI stats.
The majority of our homicide statistics come from about 25 zip codes.
there's an ADMITTED million self defense uses of guns in the US each year, and 90% of them never get reported, never have a shot fired. I've pointed guns at guys several times, and they froze in their tracks, then fled at Olympic rates of speed.
Obama has been by far the best salesman that the gun and ammo industry has ever seen. :-)
Second, we already have regulation, a massive patchwork of random regulation that is ineffectual. The regulation cat is out of the bag...that regulation ship has sailed...etc. The conversation now is not about whether or not regulation is acceptable, but what shape that regulation should take.
Third, I stand by statement which was made against those decrying that the government was going to come and take all of their guns. That is not going to happen. Are some people trying to legislate against certain types of guns and ammunition, yes. Have they been defeated in doing that, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I'm sorry but I am not running out and arguing in the extreme as some are wont to do. As for the ownership in constant flux, am I to take it that you are in favor of people in domestic abuse situations or those declared mentally incompetent, being able to have guns?
No one knows what is going to happen, so you can't say that guns won't be confiscated or an attempt will be made to confiscate them. Do you not pay attention to history?
A law here in CA was passed(not voted on by the residents of CA) where you can now just make a phone call and say you have a family member who seems "off" and their legally owned gun will be taken by the police.
So a teen who is annoyed that his father won't let him take the car, or someone who has a beef with another family member can just make a call and the gun is taken away.
We're not talking about someone who has a history of abuse or mental illness, just one person making a call and making claims.
No one knows what is going to happen, so you can't say that guns won't be confiscated or an attempt will be made to confiscate them. Do you not pay attention to history?
A law here in CA was passed(not voted on by the residents of CA) where you can now just make a phone call and say you have a family member who seems "off" and their legally owned gun will be taken by the police.
So a teen who is annoyed that his father won't let him take the car, or someone who has a beef with another family member can just make a call and the gun is taken away.
We're not talking about someone who has a history of abuse or mental illness, just one person making a call and making claims.
I find that disturbing.
Maybe some people ought to make those calls on everyone in the CA legislature INCLUDING Gov. Moonbeam!
Second, we already have regulation, a massive patchwork of random regulation that is ineffectual. The regulation cat is out of the bag...that regulation ship has sailed...etc. The conversation now is not about whether or not regulation is acceptable, but what shape that regulation should take.
Third, I stand by statement which was made against those decrying that the government was going to come and take all of their guns. That is not going to happen. Are some people trying to legislate against certain types of guns and ammunition, yes. Have they been defeated in doing that, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I'm sorry but I am not running out and arguing in the extreme as some are wont to do. As for the ownership in constant flux, am I to take it that you are in favor of people in domestic abuse situations or those declared mentally incompetent, being able to have guns?
Controversy arose over a September 8 city-wide order by New Orleans Police Superintendent Eddie Compass to local police, U.S. Army National Guard soldiers, and Deputy U.S. Marshals to confiscate all civilian-held firearms. "No one will be able to be armed," Compass said. "Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns." Seizures were carried out without warrant, and in some cases with excessive force
And of course we know now that after confiscations, almost no one was indeed able to be armed... to resist the armed gangs of ghetto thugs. Somehow their illegal guns were left alone; can it be because they didn't register them, or didn't follow the laws ?
@Orlandochuck1 - Absolutely. Inner city "ghettos" are where most of the crime happens. As I have extensively detailed though, guns flow into the ghettos from states with lax gun laws. I agree the problem needs to be addressed in the ghetto, but there is also room to go after the flow of guns into those areas as well.
@zonest - If there were actually a million uses of a gun in self defense annually in the United States, it would mean that statistically all of us would know of at least several people who have used a gun in this manner and/or it was a very common occurrence for some people. Yet, I don't anyone and either do most people. You are actually the first person I have ever heard say that they have used their gun for self-defense "several times". Those statistics were taken by manipulated surveys where the question was usually "do you think you have personally deterred crime by having a gun". When people answered "yes" as most would certainly do, it was counted in those self-defense statistics. I can share the articles and studies about that topic if you want. I'm NOT saying it DOESN'T happen, I am saying it is nowhere near as common as a "million" times a year, not anywhere close.
@seain dublin - I do pay attention to history, but I refuse to stand paralyzed because of a slippery slope argument. The belief that something might possibly happen in the future does not mean we do nothing about our present. Nothing I have proposed is anywhere near extreme.
As for the California law, I believe that the family needs to petition a judge and that there needs to be some other qualifiers such as an existing domestic violence restraining order. It's not as simple as picking up the phone and calling. I am not 100% sure I support it unless there are very strict regulations and controls. I do support the California provision where they actually track people who legally purchased firearms but then committed a felony crime later that would disqualify them from owning the gun. They then go and ask the individuals to surrender the firearm.
@Ummagumma - Covered earlier in the thread. It was a gross overreach by the New Orleans PD during an extremely stressful and trying time and roundly condemned by virtually everyone. There have been laws passed in many states since clarifying that this is not allowed as well as additional federal laws. There has never been another case like it, as far as I know, even during Superstorm Sandy in "anti-gun" NJ and NY, nothing like that occurred. The guns were returned to those who claimed them. Also, I am not aware of a single person who was subjected to this illegal siezure that suffered any ill fate from roving gangs of thugs.
@Orlandochuck1 - Absolutely. Inner city "ghettos" are where most of the crime happens. As I have extensively detailed though, guns flow into the ghettos from states with lax gun laws. I agree the problem needs to be addressed in the ghetto, but there is also room to go after the flow of guns into those areas as well.
@zonest - If there were actually a million uses of a gun in self defense annually in the United States, it would mean that statistically all of us would know of at least several people who have used a gun in this manner and/or it was a very common occurrence for some people. Yet, I don't anyone and either do most people. You are actually the first person I have ever heard say that they have used their gun for self-defense "several times". Those statistics were taken by manipulated surveys where the question was usually "do you think you have personally deterred crime by having a gun". When people answered "yes" as most would certainly do, it was counted in those self-defense statistics. I can share the articles and studies about that topic if you want. I'm NOT saying it DOESN'T happen, I am saying it is nowhere near as common as a "million" times a year, not anywhere close.
What are "lax gun laws"?
All states require an FBI background check when buying from a gun shop.
All states allow private transactions between individuals.
What laws need to be put in place in these states with "lax" gun laws, in your opinion?
Here is 660 pages of successful self defense gun uses, complete with citations to the local stories.
Sorry my reply with quote is not working in this thread...
@Orlandochuck1 - West Virginia (the second leading supplier of guns used to commit crimes in the United States) does not require background checks at gun shows and allows unlimited purchases. Sellers at gun shows in West Virginia are able to sell an unlimited quantity of guns, on the spot, no questions asked. Report after report have traced the guns used to commit crimes in the ghettos of other states as coming from states like West Virginia. Moving past that, the next largest source is the ease with which these states allow people to make 'straw purchases' again given the lack of waiting periods and no quantity limits. Finally, we have the lack of laws requiring owners to report lost or stolen guns.
I NEVER said there weren't any cases. What I questioned was the claim that there a "million" cases a year which would translate to 2,740 instances a day. Your link has 660 pages with 10 articles per page or roughly 6,600 individual reports. The links date back to 1958. That's 57 years and 6,600 occurrences or 115 per year. It's not that it doesn't happen, it's just that it's not nearly that common of an occurrence.
I have about 45 or so personal friends and acquaintences that are gun owners, many of whom CCW if their state allows it. Not a single one of them has ever actually used their gun in any form of self defense. I would venture that with the exception of zonest who seems to use his regularly, the vast majority of gun owners in this thread have never actually used their gun in a self defense situation. That would seem to mesh with theme that those who don't live in high crime ghettos are rarely of victims of crimes.
@Orlandochuck1 - Absolutely. Inner city "ghettos" are where most of the crime happens. As I have extensively detailed though, guns flow into the ghettos from states with lax gun laws. I agree the problem needs to be addressed in the ghetto, but there is also room to go after the flow of guns into those areas as well.
@zonest - If there were actually a million uses of a gun in self defense annually in the United States, it would mean that statistically all of us would know of at least several people who have used a gun in this manner and/or it was a very common occurrence for some people. Yet, I don't anyone and either do most people. You are actually the first person I have ever heard say that they have used their gun for self-defense "several times". Those statistics were taken by manipulated surveys where the question was usually "do you think you have personally deterred crime by having a gun". When people answered "yes" as most would certainly do, it was counted in those self-defense statistics. I can share the articles and studies about that topic if you want. I'm NOT saying it DOESN'T happen, I am saying it is nowhere near as common as a "million" times a year, not anywhere close.
@seain dublin - I do pay attention to history, but I refuse to stand paralyzed because of a slippery slope argument. The belief that something might possibly happen in the future does not mean we do nothing about our present. Nothing I have proposed is anywhere near extreme.
As for the California law, I believe that the family needs to petition a judge and that there needs to be some other qualifiers such as an existing domestic violence restraining order. It's not as simple as picking up the phone and calling. I am not 100% sure I support it unless there are very strict regulations and controls. I do support the California provision where they actually track people who legally purchased firearms but then committed a felony crime later that would disqualify them from owning the gun. They then go and ask the individuals to surrender the firearm.
@Ummagumma - Covered earlier in the thread. It was a gross overreach by the New Orleans PD during an extremely stressful and trying time and roundly condemned by virtually everyone. There have been laws passed in many states since clarifying that this is not allowed as well as additional federal laws. There has never been another case like it, as far as I know, even during Superstorm Sandy in "anti-gun" NJ and NY, nothing like that occurred. The guns were returned to those who claimed them. Also, I am not aware of a single person who was subjected to this illegal siezure that suffered any ill fate from roving gangs of thugs.
Yes, because so many attacked by the gangs lived to tell about it, and there was such immaculate record keeping. All these bodies floating around as reported by witnesses had death certificates neatly attached, listing the cause of death and whether or not their guns were confiscated.
Heck, they are still not sure exactly how many people died. Let alone how they died. Over 700 people are officially missing, and that's just the ones reported as missing, I wouldn't be surprised if a person with no relatives just disappeared an no one reported them. To put it in perspective - if an average family is 2 adults and 2 kids and occupies one house, that's the equivalent of the population of about 180 homes missing, assuming an average city block has 18 homes, that's the entire population of 10 city blocks missing. And that's just the official figures, someone who was reported as missing.
Walk around your neighborhood, go through 10 city blocks (a good exercise), now imagine all these homes and all people in them gone, disappeared without a trace.
Pardon me if I see any attempt by the government to create a centralized database as making it easier for another New Orleans like confiscation to occur. Even if it's not the initial or stated intent. The precedent is horrific and very recent.
Last edited by Ummagumma; 07-31-2015 at 10:55 AM..
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