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I think she wants us to know that she needs/deserves assistance and should not be looked down upon as if she is some kind of social leach. That's cool and all, but there are some people who are abusing the system and most people are denouncing them, not her, and I am sure she has to know that by now.
Here's the thing about abuse. I don't think most abuse is blatant. Even if this woman and her (now ex) husband did not intend to be dependent on food stamps, their choices led them to that situation. The link between making good life choices in order to avoid being in this situation in the first place is not emphasized enough. And when people do say it, they are shouted down as mean, heartless, racist, cruel, etc.
Note to the Young & Childless: Who you have kids with, and the financial situation you're in when you have them is a big deal. A really, really BIG DEAL. For them and for you. This simple fact is just not emphasized enough. If it was, we would not have a 40% out of wedlock birth rate, which guarantees poverty or semi-poverty for most. The effects of divorce are similar.
Last edited by mysticaltyger; 08-03-2015 at 03:12 AM..
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What you have continually ignored is my question about who pays for the foster care system? The government, state and local.
So yes we can save 1 million by ending welfare but with your solution the cost of the foster care system goes up, effectively absorbing any money we saved from ending welfare.
I did not ignore it. Obviously the taxpayer pays for the foster care. So I assume the reason for your demand that I state it, is simply to make a fallacious argument to avoid the point made.
No matter. What you ignore is that if you put those kids in a proper home, where they will be raised by people who WILL take care and raise them properly then you achieve two things. You remove the financial reward for irresponsibility and the taxpayer makes their money back because properly raised kids are much less likely to repeat the same thing in the next generation.
Here's the thing about abuse. I don't think most abuse is blatant. Even if this woman and her (now ex) husband did not intend to be dependent on food stamps,
their choices led them to that situation.
The link between making good life choices in order to avoid being in this situation in the first place is not emphasized enough. And when people do say it, they are shouted down as mean, heartless, racist, cruel, etc.
Yes people abuse the system, yes people make bad decisions, but there are plenty of people on assistance who made the "right choices" in life and then something major happened.
What about people who do make all the right choices and still things happen? Like people who lost good, high paying jobs (Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers etc...) when the economy crashed and they blew through all their savings. Or someone with insane medical bills. Or people who lost everything with Bernie Maydoff or Enron.
Yes people abuse the system, yes people make bad decisions, but there are plenty of people on assistance who made the "right choices" in life and then something major happened.
What about people who do make all the right choices and still things happen? Like people who lost good, high paying jobs (Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers etc...) when the economy crashed and they blew through all their savings. Or someone with insane medical bills. Or people who lost everything with Bernie Maydoff or Enron.
For the nth time, nobody begrudges assistance to people who are legitimately in need of the same.
Its the rampant abuse of the system that bothers people. And please do not respond that such abuse is only from a small minority of receivers. How would you possibly know that?
From a recent report from the Government Accounting Office
Approximately 75% of welfare spending is federal, with the rest contributed by the states. But, states are in charge of administering the programs and thus have the power to but do nothing to limit welfare growth. Rather, states use their discretionary authority to expand welfare while at the same time under-investigate fraud.
By way of example, the report linked to above by the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that Massachusetts has a paltry 37 fraud investigators responsible for guaranteeing that no one among the 888,000 people with SNAP benefits, the 1,273,000 receiving Medicaid, and the 92,000 with TANF cash assistance is abusing the program.
There is rampant abuse and it is obvious to anyone who cares to look.
Again, nobody minds their tax dollars going to help the people who legitimately need a hand. But, look at the situation this way... If my tax dollars are going to assist you, then, I am essentially working for you, without compensation. What do we call labor that we are forced to perform without compensation?
Here is one definition of a slave: a person who is forced to work for another against his will
Yes, how ridiculous to equate being forced to work for others who are abusing and scamming the system to slave labor. But, is it ridiculous?
I have only one life. I am fortunate in that I enjoy my job. But, I don't live to work. I work to live. If I could retire today, I would happily do so. But, I cannot. Not yet. I need to save some more.
So, every bit of my hard-earned money that goes to support abusers and scammers annoys me to no end. Those people are stealing days, months, years of my life, forcing me to spend more time working than I would need to if they would simply be responsible for their own well-being.
Why wouldn't I strongly resent people abusing and scamming the system and thus stealing the most precious thing of all - time - from me and my family?
Last edited by Salmonburgher; 08-03-2015 at 07:52 PM..
and i worked 35 years paying taxes and paying into the system. At
the age of 17, i was on my own, working a job, and supporting myself. Don't you
dare tell me that now when i need the help, i can't take advantage of the
programs i helped pay for. If you have such a problem with what people buy on
food stamps, then get your sorry butt up off the couch and become part of the
solution, instead of whining about everything.
You have kids? Well, my
tax dollars supported your kids in public schools. My tax dollars supported the
roads you drive on. My tax dollars paid into the social security and medicare
system your mother may be using. You know what? Why don't you give me back all
the money that i paid into taxes to support you and yours, and maybe i wouldn't
have to be on food stamps.
And one more thing. Bad things can happen to
anyone, anywhere, anytime. Heart attacks, natural disasters, trust me, you
aren't immune. And the higher up you place yourself, the longer the fall and the
harder you hit. And judging from your attitude, boy, are you gonna hit hard.
I have seen every imaginable abuse in section 8 housing, but my philosophy is that even if we have to pay for 10 leaches, the one person/family who actually needs and appreciates assistance is worth it.
It's kind of like the court system's use of beyond a reasonable doubt. Sure with this high standard, guilty people may go free. But if this protects one innocent and falsely accused person from being locked up, I agree.
What kind of nation and society are we if we do not protect the innocent and people who can't protect themselves?
I have seen every imaginable abuse in section 8 housing, but my philosophy is that even if we have to pay for 10 leaches, the one person/family who actually needs and appreciates assistance is worth it.
Why do we have to settle for a system that allows rampant abuse? Do you believe that accepting abuse is the only way to assist the legitimately needy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19
It's kind of like the court system's use of beyond a reasonable doubt. Sure with this high standard, guilty people may go free. But if this protects one innocent and falsely accused person from being locked up, I agree.
Kinda, but, not exactly.
The beyond a reasonable doubt standard is a check on Government power. We require the Government to prove its charges against citizens beyond a reasonable doubt (in criminal cases) so that the Government cannot abuse its power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsright19
kind of nation and society are we if we do not protect the innocent and people who can't protect themselves?
Again... why does weeding our abuse and scams have to result in a lack of protection of the innocent?
Instead of food stamps, I'd rather be given a job. Didn't they have CCC programs and the like during the great depression? We could replicate this somewhat. That way those people can have some dignity and get the "I earned my high and mighty opinion" individuals off their back.
I'm all for creating living wages. I'm no good at math but maybe someone could compare the value of food stamps to the wage they could be making working. Someone down on their luck could get into a program based on their skills and earn their way. Again, I believe in the dignity and worth of a human being. And no able bodied individuals would be out of work!
I know. I would really love that idea if it were feasible. I don't know why they can't just make programs that are actually helpful to get a job instead of the joke of an employment center they have here. I think they should forgive student loans if they don't work out (like from a for profit school) but having these programs like EBT or Section 8 is stupid. I would love to get off section 8 but somehow the state would rather LAZILY take care of me like a child than actually help me to help myself and then people wonder why I think so lowly of myself.
Last edited by Nickchick; 08-08-2015 at 05:01 PM..
I know. I would really love that idea if it were feasible. I don't know why they can't just make programs that are actually helpful to get a job instead of the joke of an employment center they have here. I think they should forgive student loans if they don't work out (like from a for profit school) but having these programs like EBT or Section 8 is stupid. I would love to get off section 8 but somehow the state would rather LAZILY take care of me like a child than actually help me to help myself and then people wonder why I think so lowly of myself.
I agree that the current system leaves a lot to be desired.
I don't know if I agree with forgiving student loans. People signed up for that debt and gave their word that they would pay it back. I don't think it would send a good message to say "Don't worry even though you signed up for this loan, you don't have to pay it back".
Also what about all the millions of people that have paid back their loans...many of them struggling to do so?
I remember reading about public housing in America , when it started it was supposed to be temporary..but now there are many people that are 'lifers' dependent on public housing and tax money. These places once were decent but they have become pretty terrible places to live , with high crime,etc.
You said you would love to help yourself but that the state/government doesn't want to help you help yourself.
I think that a big issue is people putting so much trust and reliance in the government for their wellbeing or prosperity.
Also sometimes one has to 'create their own job' or small business. There are ways can learn skills for free or super cheap . Example, learn wordpress or webdesign or photoshop from free material online or from library books and then offer your services on things like Fiverr, freelance.com,elance, etc ..many other similar sites
I agree that the current system leaves a lot to be desired.
I don't know if I agree with forgiving student loans. People signed up for that debt and gave their word that they would pay it back. I don't think it would send a good message to say "Don't worry even though you signed up for this loan, you don't have to pay it back".
Also what about all the millions of people that have paid back their loans...many of them struggling to do so?
I remember reading about public housing in America , when it started it was supposed to be temporary..but now there are many people that are 'lifers' dependent on public housing and tax money. These places once were decent but they have become pretty terrible places to live , with high crime,etc.
You said you would love to help yourself but that the state/government doesn't want to help you help yourself.
I think that a big issue is people putting so much trust and reliance in the government for their wellbeing or prosperity.
Also sometimes one has to 'create their own job' or small business. There are ways can learn skills for free or super cheap . Example, learn wordpress or webdesign or photoshop from free material online or from library books and then offer your services on things like Fiverr, freelance.com,elance, etc ..many other similar sites
Some of these require more money than others...but some require no money or hardly any money
People need to look at ways to make money besides the traditional one of working a job for X dollars an hour.
Forgiving student loans is important if you don't get anything out of it. If one signed up for the loan, then the school signed up to give the recipient a useful degree. What good is a degree if you're no further than you started? If the desired career isn't the result, then it's pretty much worthless. Now if you go into the school and knowledge is all you wanted that's fine but many people get degrees to further their career so that is what they should get.
Well if they can dish out money for these programs then they should be able to make useful job programs for unemployable people. Doing those programs instead allows a person to not rely on the government for their wellbeing/prosperity. Once they get the job that's it. You get that starting point, then the next time you seek a job you'll know exactly what to do. At the very least, they could create more jobs. That way there isn't so much competition.
Yeah but you have to be the business type to be able to create your own business. That is why people try to go for the traditional way of working a job. If it was possible, everyone would have their own business. Actually looking for alternative ways to make money that was closer to making your own business was exactly how I got scammed out of 300 dollars. Making a website is close to my field but I've turned sour for it after that.
There are ways for anyone to make money but I wouldn't really call it "money" most of the time. You get better money being a slave in China on the sewing machine. Seems like a lot of great ideas in that list but I thought the same thing for the Penny Hoarder website and they were all duds or things I've already attempted. I even found out that you can sell your feces (which is gross but hey I'd do it if it paid well) but you have to be in a certain area for that. I've also thought about sleep studies but that doesn't work for someone who fights sleep and I think that is only limited to a certain area as well.
Many things that would work out require you to be in a certain location and for the rest you have to be able to manage yourself AND be able to really sell yourself. It's hard enough trying to sell yourself to get into a job but to do it to continuously make money..I can't even imagine especially if you are really limited in your abilities.
Last edited by Nickchick; 08-09-2015 at 10:38 PM..
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