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Old 07-25-2015, 09:41 AM
 
7,328 posts, read 4,017,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
Your right. Saddam kept a lid on the madness by killing over 800000 while he was in power.
I don't buy the argument that Saddam kept a lid on things because the civil war that broke out as a result of the invasions was totally avoidable. It was the utter arrogance of the Bush administration and Paul Bremer in particular who set Iraq on the road to chaos. The whole sale cashiering of Baathist party members and the dissolution of the Iraqi army (to say nothing of abu Ghraib) and the installation of an Iranian puppet doomed Iraq.

If there were people with experience in the middle-east, of which there were very few, some semblance of a representative government that insured the representation of all strata of Iraqi society, Iraq could have been held together without the sectarian strife that we experienced.
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:46 AM
 
610 posts, read 581,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
They were being slaughtered everyday by Saddam. Its no wonder that they rose up. The only thing that I don't like about it is that we didn't back them like we should have.

Are you actually trying to excuse Saddam killing them because they didn't want to live under his tyrannical rule?
Nope, what I am saying is that the U.S. betrayed the righteous cause of the rebellion, then blockaded medicine and food from entering the country and killed a million Iraqis as a result, then invaded and killed hundreds of thousands more, and then backed the most horrible murdering militias in Iraq while they ethnically cleansed Baghdad, then turned around and backed the Sunnis against AQI and the Revolutionary Guard. You ever see American Sniper? Those power-drill-torturers were actually America's allies.

My point is, the U.S. government does all of this in just ONE Muslim country, and plenty more in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Egypt, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, etc., and then they pretend like they can't figure out why Muslims seem to commit all of the terrorist attacks against us.
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:47 AM
 
1,660 posts, read 936,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leavingIL View Post
Nope, what I am saying is that the U.S. betrayed the righteous cause of the rebellion, then blockaded medicine and food from entering the country and killed a million Iraqis as a result, then invaded and killed hundreds of thousands more, and then backed the most horrible murdering militias in Iraq while they ethnically cleansed Baghdad, then turned around and backed the Sunnis against AQI and the Revolutionary Guard. You ever see American Sniper? Those power-drill-torturers were actually America's allies.

My point is, the U.S. government does all of this in just ONE Muslim country, and plenty more in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Egypt, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, etc., and then they pretend like they can't figure out why Muslims seem to commit all of the terrorist attacks against us.

Good points.
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:50 AM
 
610 posts, read 581,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
I don't buy the argument that Saddam kept a lid on things because the civil war that broke out as a result of the invasions was totally avoidable. It was the utter arrogance of the Bush administration and Paul Bremer in particular who set Iraq on the road to chaos. The whole sale cashiering of Baathist party members and the dissolution of the Iraqi army (to say nothing of abu Ghraib) and the installation of an Iranian puppet doomed Iraq.

If there were people with experience in the middle-east, of which there were very few, some semblance of a representative government that insured the representation of all strata of Iraqi society, Iraq could have been held together without the sectarian strife that we experienced.
I agree with your entire first paragraph, and disagree with the entire second. I would also add to the first that Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith and Richard Perle in the OSP were all equally responsible.

But to your second point, the progress from autocracy to freedom is a slow one that must begin organically in the culture being repressed. To attempt to speed along the transition from big government to small government by using another big government and also violence will do nothing but lead to some other horrible cadre of violent murderers obtaining power. I think that any invasion of any kind was doomed to result in another horrible dictator no matter what the U.S. government's intentions or the quality of their Mid-East political knowledge.
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:55 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,668 posts, read 74,663,884 times
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we put a spin on it all dont we, each has his own crusade and agenda.
i have read the quran twice all of it.
religion of peace and love is stretching it a bit
but your point is well taken the old testament bible is very similar--- prophets ordered the extermination of pagan villages, genocide in OT.
but back to islam
but to actually advocate the killing of jews and christians entire races and religions is bigger project than just a village.
chapter 9 section 2 (9:5 kill the ones who are polytheists wherever you found them....
quran
al-- tawbah
they are of course talking about jews and christians
we must all evolve my friend all of us.
and a key part of that evolvement is to stop the violence.
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Old 07-25-2015, 10:04 AM
 
610 posts, read 581,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
we put a spin on it all dont we, each has his own crusade and agenda.
i have read the quran twice all of it.
religion of peace and love is stretching it a bit
but your point is well taken the old testament bible is very similar
but to actually advocate the killing of jews and christians
chapter 9 section 2 (9:5 kill the ones who are polytheists wherever you found them....
quran
al-- tawbah
they are of course talking about jews and christians
I get your point, but I would argue that culture is a much stronger force in guiding individual action than the actual text of religious books. The only holy book that actually has suicide terrorism in it, for instance, is the Bible. But most Christians don't do this, because the Christian nations were largely the ones that went through the Enlightenment. Even the most backwards African nations generally tend towards some semblance of enlightenment-inspired political values, largely because of colonization. The Mid-East never received that kind of treatment, being ruled by the Ottomans for so long, and as a result, many of their cultures have made the least progress towards modern political values. The unfortunate reality, however, is that whatever progress they were making by, say, 1990, is backpedaled by reactionaries who use their hatred for U.S. foreign policy as an excuse to peddle their own Right-Wing fascist agenda. Being that almost everyone in most Muslim countries is both Islamic and sick of being murdered by the U.S. government, Islam simply serves as an excuse for their political castes to be terrible people that holds much legitimacy among their populations. This is the same way the U.S. government uses our own cultural values (freedom, democracy, women's rights, etc.) as an excuse to murder Arabs, and most of the population buys this narrative. Consider that in the modern (or modern-trending) Muslim countries and the members of their diasporas, especially the ones the U.S. is not bombing or supporting fascist dictatorships, i.e. Malaysia, Bangladesh, Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Bosnia, Albania, etc., you don't really see these kind of stone-age reactionary political leaders. Culture, I would argue, is a much stronger moral force than the actual text of religious documents.
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Old 07-25-2015, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Eastern Shore of Maryland
5,941 posts, read 2,706,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post
I always find it fascinating how the pro Murica crowd always ignores, white washes, and downplays innocent civilian casualties the US military has inflicted.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the military or America, but there's this ridiculous double standard, that if 500 civilians are killed by a US military airstrike in order to target one bomb maker/terrorist, then the pro Murica will crow with bursting pride, and in regards to the civilian victims, say, oh well, shyte happens, that's 'war.'

Its Collateral Damage, not Casualties. Its only justified if we are doing it, since we are the god guys and anyone that opposes us are the bad guys. If they are civilians, they are Bad Guy Civilians. We are doing Gods work, so any one killed by accident is not our fault. Democracy is like an omelet. You have to break a few eggs to make it work. Everyone knows that if they aren't Christians and practice Democracy, they are Heathens and need our help to be free, to accept Democracy.
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Old 07-25-2015, 10:23 AM
 
7,328 posts, read 4,017,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leavingIL View Post
I agree with your entire first paragraph, and disagree with the entire second. I would also add to the first that Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith and Richard Perle in the OSP were all equally responsible.
So you don't agree, you just want to add to the list. I'm fine with that.

Quote:
But to your second point, the progress from autocracy to freedom is a slow one that must begin organically in the culture being repressed. To attempt to speed along the transition from big government to small government by using another big government and also violence will do nothing but lead to some other horrible cadre of violent murderers obtaining power.
Oh, I agree that results cannot be realized overnight. Contrary to the revisionist history of Iraq, it was precisely the belief that Iraq could be turned into a shining democracy overnight that led the Bush administration to push the overnight democratization of Iraq. But the process began with the sham attempt to first promote the con-man Chalabi and then devolved into an Iranian friendly/Sunni hostile take over.
At that point, any further attempts were simply futile.

Quote:
I think that any invasion of any kind was doomed to result in another horrible dictator no matter what the U.S. government's intentions or the quality of their Mid-East political knowledge.
Now on that point I disagree.
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Old 07-25-2015, 10:25 AM
 
7,328 posts, read 4,017,748 times
Reputation: 9081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris347 View Post
Its Collateral Damage, not Casualties. Its only justified if we are doing it, since we are the god guys and anyone that opposes us are the bad guys. If they are civilians, they are Bad Guy Civilians. We are doing Gods work, so any one killed by accident is not our fault. Democracy is like an omelet. You have to break a few eggs to make it work. Everyone knows that if they aren't Christians and practice Democracy, they are Heathens and need our help to be free, to accept Democracy.
A bit didactic with a dash of over-the-top disparagement but essentially accurate nonetheless.
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Old 07-25-2015, 11:06 AM
 
610 posts, read 581,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
So you don't agree, you just want to add to the list. I'm fine with that.



Oh, I agree that results cannot be realized overnight. Contrary to the revisionist history of Iraq, it was precisely the belief that Iraq could be turned into a shining democracy overnight that led the Bush administration to push the overnight democratization of Iraq. But the process began with the sham attempt to first promote the con-man Chalabi and then devolved into an Iranian friendly/Sunni hostile take over.
At that point, any further attempts were simply futile.



Now on that point I disagree.
But Ahmed Chalabi was going to end the Israeli boycott!

You ever read that article "How Chalabi Conned the Neo-Cons"? I can't remember where it was published... but it was basically his entire story and how everyone plotting the war in the Bush Administration bought completely into his easily-debunkable b/s from the start.

To your point about the invasion could have brought about democracy, I challenge you to show me where in history an occupation has turned a dictatorship (that has never actually had democratic representation) into a democracy. West Germany had a precedent, so I don't believe that qualifies.
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