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Old 10-18-2015, 04:18 PM
 
9,524 posts, read 4,865,520 times
Reputation: 3870

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kat in aiken View Post
Per Vocabulary.com: Dogma means the doctrine of belief in a religion or a political system. The literal meaning of dogma in ancient Greek was something that seems true.

I think that they are using 'dogma of belief' to mean that the content will discuss the things that a religion, political, or social system believes to be true... i.e., the earth is flat (not any more); Egyptian Pharohs were something like gods; Democracy is better than Communism; men (but not women or blacks) are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. All these seemed true, or still seem true, to different religions, political, or social systems at one time or another. Some of them were ALL considered to seem true to different groups at the same time. All depe3nds on the point of view.

As far as history covering a lot of religion - I think it is safe to say that religious beliefs have always played a large role in why a society does what it does - including going to war, expanding territory, exploring and conquering other parts of the world. Religion looms large in history.
Fine, that's roughly what I expected. So, the statement in post 533:

"I think it's important to reiterate that the class that the mother is protesting is not a class that's set up to teach about religion, but a class that covers World History from 500 A.D. to 1789 A.D."

... is off the mark, even though the word 'religion' isn't used.

I wouldn't mind if 6th/7th graders, 11/12 year olds are taught [Generally] that Christians accepted Jesus as the Son of God, the New Testament is divinely inspired, and reveals the path to salvation and a good life. Islam taught that Muhammad, who came after Jesus, was the final, true messenger of Allah and follow a holy book called the Quran. A few more sentences and key words should be enough to handle world history and geography at that level.
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Old 10-18-2015, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
435 posts, read 332,900 times
Reputation: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Informed Info View Post
Ancient history vs. current?

That works.
Not talking about ancient history, the idea that you can assign collective blame to an entire religious group of people because of the actions of some individuals.
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Old 10-18-2015, 04:48 PM
 
17,497 posts, read 10,651,701 times
Reputation: 6746
Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias View Post
I wouldn't hold "toprightnews.com" in the highest regard for dispassionate reporting. As I said above, knowing what they pray isn't the same as making them believe it, but knowing what they pray helps provide insight into their thoughts and justification for actions. "Reciting" the words of a prayer is really the best way to test the education of what is in that prayer, but it isn't the same as forcing them to "participate" in the prayer. Words with no faith are just words, after all. Reciting the Gettysburg address doesn't mean kids will agree that the United States should be indivisible, it just means they have better understanding of the philosophy behind the Civil War. I learned it in school, but I personally believe that having a war to force states to remain in a political union, regardless of the reasons, was immoral. Hundreds of thousands of people died for a political reason. I personally believe that if the United States and the Confederate States had simply reached a political treaty that slavery would have not existed in states where it was already illegal, and would have died out within a few decades in the states where it was legal. The winds of change were already strongly in favor of the end of slavery, and perhaps if the Confederate States had been allowed to discover that moral truth on their own we wouldn't have seen a century of Jim Crow after the end of it.
Actually, they have Current Event reporting, unless this is an issue......say what you like!

Are you saying; if we get to know Islam better and teach our children they are no different than those Christians in the past, those in the ME will come to like us? Who is reporting this other than toprightnews?
Muslims Came To Attack This Church… But Christians Had a BRUTAL Surprise Waiting | Top Right News
So what did they do after adopting Koranic law? Within days, they decided that every Christian church in the province needed to be “licensed” under Sharia, and were thus illegal, as the BBC reported.


Possibly the schools should focus on CURRENT HISTORY they will learn about cultures much faster.
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Old 10-18-2015, 05:52 PM
 
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
4,460 posts, read 6,572,683 times
Reputation: 5970
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
Actually, they have Current Event reporting, unless this is an issue......say what you like!

Are you saying; if we get to know Islam better and teach our children they are no different than those Christians in the past, those in the ME will come to like us? Who is reporting this other than toprightnews?
Muslims Came To Attack This Church… But Christians Had a BRUTAL Surprise Waiting | Top Right News
So what did they do after adopting Koranic law? Within days, they decided that every Christian church in the province needed to be “licensed” under Sharia, and were thus illegal, as the BBC reported.
What does Sharia have to do with education in California? Very little. Knowing the history is Islam will help provide context to current events.

There is also the need to understand the difference between the core religion and the actions of individuals or groups who are acting in the name of a religion. The Crusades and the Ku Klux Klan have very little to do with contemporary Christianity, but understanding Christianity as a religion helps put both of those into context and to differentiate between the actions of individual Christians and Christianity as a whole. If all you knew about Christianity was the KKK, your view of it would be far different than if you also knew about Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Francis and Martin Luther and Mother Theresa and other thinkers in Christianity. The same is true of Islam. If all you know is ISIS and the article you referenced, and you don't know about Ibn Arabi or the idea of "People of the Book" or that much of our knowledge of Greek history and politics comes because of preservation and re-transmission from Arabic/Islamic sources, your impression of Islam will be very different because of narrow, incomplete understanding of history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
Possibly the schools should focus on CURRENT HISTORY they will learn about cultures much faster.
As I said above, following only current events will give you only a very incomplete understanding of cultures. If you only understand current events, you won't understand anything about why the Islamic world has reacted the way it has. Even ignoring ancient history about the genesis of Islam, if you only focus on current events you lose relevant background such as the Arabic revolt against the Ottomans, and the Western domination of Persia culminating in the Shaw of Iran. Looking at Islamic reactions today without knowing what they're reacting to is absurd. It would be like looking at the American Revolution without knowing about the actions of King George.

Even something like Bin Laden, you can't really understand Bin Laden without knowing about the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, which also benefits from an understanding of the British involvement in Afghanistan. As the somewhat trite expression goes, those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. And Americans have absolutely forgotten history in a number of important areas. It's astonishing to me that you would be suggesting we encourage more forgetfulness. I mean, seriously, can you name one reason why the Islamic Moors ruled what is present-day Spain? I'm guessing you can't, and that's not a criticism of you, it's a criticism of contemporary education.

Last edited by emathias; 10-18-2015 at 06:03 PM..
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:17 PM
 
2,057 posts, read 1,121,226 times
Reputation: 2101
Absolutely, positively correct. However, In considering that we are talking about a 7th Grade class ... methinks that accomplishing this is impossible. Not just because of the magnitude of the volume of information, but the background of events required to process it. Yes, I think that a seventh grader could process this information ... given adequate time. However, trying to compress the majority of Western Civilization into one less than an hour class, five days a week, for one middle school year just ain't gonna get it. So, getting back to your point ... there has to be a limit on how deep the lesson goes into the subject. I think the 5 pillars and prayer go too far. It appears to me that the teacher has an agenda and has exceeded the state standard.

I said it before on post #87 and I stand by my words ... the parent is correct, the teacher is wrong.

El Nox
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Oregon
835 posts, read 1,394,853 times
Reputation: 867
But they might not actually be teaching them what Islam or its history is really about. It might be a false PC version or a Muslim Brotherhood-approved propaganda version.
Understanding the core religion would indeed allow the kids to know this: that it is being obeyed, when these terrorists do what Mohammed said to do --he literally told them to "Strike terror" in the hearts of the infidels, slay them, Islam must take over all countries with Sharia law, etc. And he never limited that to just one time or place, unlike most conquest in say, the Bible.
(all non- muslims are "infidels" to them- and the USA is their biggest target- as told by the documents of the Muslim Brotherhood) .
So i think the big issues are 2 things: 1) the fake watered-down version of Islam and its history being shown, which is deceptive and causes people to be dumbed-down as to its reality: and is NOT what actual mosques teach.
2) the mom doesn't want her kid to know or be introduced into any other religion , especially by having her kid practice aspects of it or rehearse any of it. This is definitely within her right as a mom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias View Post
What does Sharia have to do with education in California? Very little. Knowing the history is Islam will help provide context to current events.

There is also the need to understand the difference between the core religion and the actions of individuals or groups who are acting in the name of a religion. The Crusades and the Ku Klux Klan have very little to do with contemporary Christianity, but understanding Christianity as a religion helps put both of those into context and to differentiate between the actions of individual Christians and Christianity as a whole. If all you knew about Christianity was the KKK, your view of it would be far different than if you also knew about Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Francis and Martin Luther and Mother Theresa and other thinkers in Christianity. The same is true of Islam. If all you know is ISIS and the article you referenced, and you don't know about Ibn Arabi or the idea of "People of the Book" or that much of our knowledge of Greek history and politics comes because of preservation and re-transmission from Arabic/Islamic sources, your impression of Islam will be very different because of narrow, incomplete understanding of history.



As I said above, following only current events will give you only a very incomplete understanding of cultures. If you only understand current events, you won't understand anything about why the Islamic world has reacted the way it has. Even ignoring ancient history about the genesis of Islam, if you only focus on current events you lose relevant background such as the Arabic revolt against the Ottomans, and the Western domination of Persia culminating in the Shaw of Iran. Looking at Islamic reactions today without knowing what they're reacting to is absurd. It would be like looking at the American Revolution without knowing about the actions of King George.

Even something like Bin Laden, you can't really understand Bin Laden without knowing about the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, which also benefits from an understanding of the British involvement in Afghanistan. As the somewhat trite expression goes, those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. And Americans have absolutely forgotten history in a number of important areas. It's astonishing to me that you would be suggesting we encourage more forgetfulness. I mean, seriously, can you name one reason why the Islamic Moors ruled what is present-day Spain? I'm guessing you can't, and that's not a criticism of you, it's a criticism of contemporary education.
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,440 posts, read 10,390,177 times
Reputation: 20299
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
Actually, they have Current Event reporting, unless this is an issue......say what you like!

Are you saying; if we get to know Islam better and teach our children they are no different than those Christians in the past, those in the ME will come to like us? Who is reporting this other than toprightnews?
Muslims Came To Attack This Church… But Christians Had a BRUTAL Surprise Waiting | Top Right News
So what did they do after adopting Koranic law? Within days, they decided that every Christian church in the province needed to be “licensed” under Sharia, and were thus illegal, as the BBC reported.


Possibly the schools should focus on CURRENT HISTORY they will learn about cultures much faster.
In our school there was a current events component in all social studies classes.
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Oregon
835 posts, read 1,394,853 times
Reputation: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3~Shepherds View Post
So this is nice seems to me Christians are described during the Crusades and no one is saying who they were fighting and why the fight was happening. Lets just make those Christians look like flat earth people and people of war! While Islam is looked at as a victim of all other religions......things have changed since 9/11.

How is making kids participate in Islam prayer teaching them HISTORY!

Inside of the book is a chapter dedicated to the “Rise of Islam,” including prayers and scriptures from the Quran. What’s more disturbing for Wagner is that the first 100 pages discussing Judaism and Christianity are missing. The district blames a “defect” in the books, which are only a year old.
Common Core School Assignment FORCES Students to Make Islamic Prayer Rugs, Recite Muslim Prayers | Top Right News
Thanks- needed to see what the actual complaint was about. This is pretty extreme violation by the school.
And yes, it seems for the past few decades the fake story about the Crusades, being taught in schools, portrays Christians as aggressors, when in reality the Muslims were hot on the conquest-for-allah trail, conquering and basically killing, raping, enslaving, or over-taxing the predominant, widespread, already established Christian communities of the mideast. Unless they converted to Islam (forced conversion which is still practiced today, and is commanded in the quran- with no endpoint). The Catholic Church decided to put out the call to all the feudal men at arms in Europe, FOR DEFENSE OF THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITIES AND CITIES. Because the mideast used to be Christian!
In essence, the well-organized and funded "Isis of the medieval age" was hard at work and at war, and the response was the Crusades.

HERE'S SOME STRAIGHT TALK...

http://www.meforum.org/3182/history-muslim-conquests
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Old 10-18-2015, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,004 posts, read 54,508,374 times
Reputation: 66349
Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
I'm sure the teacher would be banned by the highest court of the land from teaching anything about Christianity. IT seems logical then, since the school is not to teach religion, that schools are banned from teaching about ALL religions.
Your post doesn't make any sense. It clearly says that the very first section involves Christianity as it applies to the Roman Empire during the time period covered, plus discusses Buddhism in both China and Japan, and then there is one whole section on The Reformation, which is Christianity.
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Old 10-18-2015, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,148 posts, read 3,157,456 times
Reputation: 2634
I could understand teaching a 12 year old something about Islam. But I am just curious and puzzled why give him youtube videos of islamic customs of ceremonies / prayers. I have learned and been taught a lot about religion, but have never heard of this.

I also wonder if the public would be so cavalier here if a teacher gave student a youtube video of a christian ceremony or prayer.

I actually have been in the Blue Mosque of Istanbul. Absolutely beautiful and impressive.
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