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Old 01-19-2016, 10:35 AM
 
1,535 posts, read 1,377,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
Great point. It sickens me that they wrap themselves in the American flag to act in this way.
Me too.

Though I have no sympathy with the militants, I do have some sympathies with the many real ranchers in the far West, who pay their range leases, don't make threats against government employees and work hard to make a traditional living.

With these people in mind, I wonder if all the recent restrictions on BLM land are truly needed, if say, a wild life refuge truly needed to be expanded even further, and if restrictions are warranted, why the hsitorical use of the declining number of current ranchers cant be grandfathered?

 
Old 01-19-2016, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,455,447 times
Reputation: 6336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
Me too.

Though I have no sympathy with the militants, I do have some sympathies with the many real ranchers in the far West, who pay their range leases, don't make threats against government employees and work hard to make a traditional living.

With these people in mind, I wonder if all the recent restrictions on BLM land are truly needed, if say, a wild life refuge truly needed to be expanded even further, and if restrictions are warranted, why the hsitorical use of the declining number of current ranchers cant be grandfathered?
I have to admit that I do not know much about this issue but I think that if the government is being unnecessarily restrictive it should be reviewed and policies changed.

I have great respect for tradition and do not like things being changed for new development if it infringes on people who have been doing things for year. Like in Montana if someone buys a property and restricts ranchers from making livestock runs through it once or twice a year as they have for decades.

Also US Agriculture is a multi BILLION dollar industry and actually may be more influential on the world than the US military so I am sure the US Goivernment is not doing much to threaten that.
 
Old 01-19-2016, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
42,718 posts, read 25,889,902 times
Reputation: 33795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
Me too. Though I have no sympathy with the militants, I do have some sympathies with the many real ranchers in the far West, who pay their range leases, don't make threats against government employees and work hard to make a traditional living. With these people in mind, I wonder if all the recent restrictions on BLM land are truly needed, if say, a wild life refuge truly needed to be expanded even further, and if restrictions are warranted, why the hsitorical use of the declining number of current ranchers cant be grandfathered?
Most ranchers are very happy that they can graze their cattle at dirt cheap prices (1/3 to 1/10 of the cost if they leased from a private landowner). They also understand that they have to work with environmental groups even if it means restricting grazing in some areas. The only ones having a hissy fit are criminals like the Bundy's who never paid their grazing fees while every other rancher in the area was paying them without complaint.
 
Old 01-19-2016, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,840 posts, read 9,140,847 times
Reputation: 13779
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
And another one bites the dust..
"A protester believed to be involved in the Malheur refuge standoff crashed on a road near Hines early Sunday, but he was uninjured. Darrow Burke, 57, of Ukiah, California, was driving on Greenhouse Lane about a mile east of Oregon 20 and failed to navigate a 25 mph curve in his white 2003 Ford van. He traveled off the road and crashed through a barbed-wire fence, ending up about 150 feet off the roadway, said Lt. Bill Fugate, an Oregon State Police spokesman." California man believed part of Oregon standoff crashes van on icy road | OregonLive.com

And an interesting article about how the 'hands off' strategy of the feds might just be working:
The Oregon Militia Is Turning Out To Be Its Very Own Worst Enemy
LOL. The Too-Stupid-to-Be-True Crew makes the Gang-That-Couldn't-Shoot-Straight look like professional marksmen!!!

TBH, I certainly hope that none of the locals lose their tempers and decide to do something drastic to these militia nutjobs ... they're not worth the trouble anybody would get into, but my guess there are more than a few good ol' boys around Burns who'd like to pepper them with buckshot.
 
Old 01-19-2016, 01:42 PM
 
1,535 posts, read 1,377,069 times
Reputation: 2098
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
I have to admit that I do not know much about this issue but I think that if the government is being unnecessarily restrictive it should be reviewed and policies changed.

Also US Agriculture is a multi BILLION dollar industry and actually may be more influential on the world than the US military so I am sure the US Goivernment is not doing much to threaten that.
My knowledge of the issues are pretty limited as well. I dont know what constitutes reasonable restrictions and what would constitute over zealous restrictions.

I think you have an excellent point about the power of US agriculture. At the same time, congressional delegations from the western states have vioiced their concerns over some BLM practices. Government agencies can be pretty resistant to pressure- espescially when a convervationist philosophy is mirrored at the current White House.

Maybe a committee could screen the rancher's complaints and make a recommendation as to which are legitimate and solvable and which are either not legitimate or are inherently not solvable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Most ranchers are very happy that they can graze their cattle at dirt cheap prices (1/3 to 1/10 of the cost if they leased from a private landowner). They also understand that they have to work with environmental groups even if it means restricting grazing in some areas. The only ones having a hissy fit are criminals like the Bundy's who never paid their grazing fees while every other rancher in the area was paying them without complaint.
That is an over simplification. As the residents of Burns, Oregon can tell you, the core issues go way beyond the Bundys, the Hammonds, "Cowboy" Lavoy and the rest of the misfits.

In short, there could well be legitimate complaints amongst the ranchers in the far west and unhappiness might not be restricted to just the Bundys and their followers.

Last edited by Cryptic; 01-19-2016 at 01:53 PM..
 
Old 01-20-2016, 05:45 AM
 
10,829 posts, read 5,393,510 times
Reputation: 4710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
Source?
The Constitution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
You just did one of the best jobs that I have ever seen of refusing to acknowledge that you're wrong.
That's funny, because I admitted I was wrong.

Did you not see where I said to my opponent, "You did a good job there"?

Quote:
The Constitution sets forth the powers of the federal government and in clear and unmistakable language it gives Congress the power to create and manage federal lands. There is nothing in the Constitution that says that all federal lands within a territory become part of a state when statehood is granted to that territory. Therefore, the specific language of the Constitution that gives Congress the right to manage federal lands and property prevails.
The Constitution and federal government were created to SERVE the colonies/states and the citizens of those colonies/states, not to tyrannize over them.

There is NO good reason for the federal government to own 80% of the land in Nevada.

Once Nevada became a state, most of that land should have been offered or sold to the residents of Nevada.

Quote:
FTR, the US Supreme Court has the job of interpreting the Constitution. The court has said twice that power over public lands is vested in Congress and "without limitation". See U.S. v. Gratiot, 39 US 14 (1840). U.S. v. City and County of San Francisco, 310 US 16 (1940). Until and unless the Constitution is amended that ends any real question about this matter.
That's fine.

And all I've said is that Congress should give the land back to the states.

And the states in turn should sell most of it to private owners.

The Constitution, federal government and the states/cities/counties, etc. were created to serve the interests of the people, not a bunch of overpaid, empire-building bureaucrats throwing their weight around and politicians bought off by special interests in Washington.

Quote:
People who think that the states should own these lands despite these facts....well...they live in a right wing dreamland. I wonder if the next argument I will hear is that "the Supreme Court doesn't know how to interpret the Constitution"?
It obviously doesn't, given 1) its propensity to overturn its own decisions; and 2) its ridiculous transformation of a 25 page document into hundreds of thousands of pages of long-winded bloviating by pompous "philosopher-king" judges.
 
Old 01-20-2016, 05:51 AM
 
10,829 posts, read 5,393,510 times
Reputation: 4710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
My knowledge of the issues are pretty limited as well. I don't know what constitutes reasonable restrictions and what would constitute over zealous restrictions.

I think you have an excellent point about the power of US agriculture. At the same time, congressional delegations from the western states have voiced their concerns over some BLM practices. Government agencies can be pretty resistant to pressure- especially when a conservationist philosophy is mirrored at the current White House.

Maybe a committee could screen the rancher's complaints and make a recommendation as to which are legitimate and solvable and which are either not legitimate or are inherently not solvable?
Well said.

Quote:
That is an over simplification. As the residents of Burns, Oregon can tell you, the core issues go way beyond the Bundys, the Hammonds, "Cowboy" Lavoy and the rest of the misfits.

In short, there could well be legitimate complaints amongst the ranchers in the far west and unhappiness might not be restricted to just the Bundys and their followers.
Exactly

But the other side here isn't interested in knowledge or facts.

They are effete liberal urban elitists who hate rural America because it is "too white."
 
Old 01-20-2016, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,455,447 times
Reputation: 6336
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
The Constitution.
If you are so sure why not take it to court?

No need to make up an answer because we know the answer. You are wrong.
 
Old 01-20-2016, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,455,447 times
Reputation: 6336
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
There is NO good reason for the federal government to own 80% of the land in Nevada.
First, if this is even true, why do you keep stating this as if it is a meaningful point?
 
Old 01-20-2016, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,455,447 times
Reputation: 6336
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
They are effete liberal urban elitists who hate rural America because it is "too white."
Dude, I am from rural America. I served in the US Army. I think people are interested in knowledge and facts but when asked specific questions you deflect or offer overly broad answers like "The Constitution" without specifics to back it up. This to many people is a sign that a person knows that they are wrong and cannot admit it.
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