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Originally Posted by Hoot N Annie View Post
The totality of the situation is that the cops wanted to take this guy out, and they did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould
This is simply not accurate. The cops did everything they could not to take this guy, or any of the other guys, out.
They waited several weeks for them to come to their senses.
They arranged to take the leaders into custody in a way that was least likely to cause bloodshed.
I'm not sure what else they could have done, short of letting them turn a federal facility into their headquarters for the next few years.
Exactly. If the cops wanted to take this guy out they could have a long time ago and Bundy would also be dead. I think they have tried to avoid any bloodshed.
Herein lies the rub. It doesn't look to me like that old man poses a significant threat of death or seriousphysical injury. The multiple cops had their weapons drawn and aimed at him. I just don't see the "probable cause to believe" standard being met. And as for context, writing shoot 'em fiction is not a crime. Talking tough when your hanging out with your friends is not a crime. Running a road block is but is not a capital offense. And he did not show a weapon. Had he shown a weapon, even without firing, then that would change things. I would not expect the cops to let him have the first shot.
Damn can't wait to see you at the next Black Lives Matter Rally, welcome to the cause.
Quote:
The totality of the situation is that the cops wanted to take this guy out, and they did.
The totality of the situation is that these folks are suffering from delusions of grandeur if they and their supporters think that in the grands scale of human events that they represent some sort of existential threat to the U.S. government and that the U.S. government would "take them out" as a result. I would argue that the U.S. government showed as much restraint as possible so as to not bring harm upon these individuals for fear that some Tim McVeigh wannabe hanging out their in militia land did have a set of martyrs to spur them into some action that would be an actual threat to the people and the government of the United States.
I keep trying to get out of this thread but you folks keep piling on. So one last thought. The "restraint" you speak so highly of is perhaps just a method to create plausible deniability. Hmmmm.
Of course I know that several of you will have to respond. You just can't help it. Give it your best shot (no pun intended).
Mahalo
I keep trying to get out of this thread but you folks keep piling on. So one last thought. The "restraint" you speak so highly of is perhaps just a method to create plausible deniability. Hmmmm.
Of course I know that several of you will have to respond. You just can't help it. Give it your best shot (no pun intended).
Mahalo
That's funny...I heard Bundy and his cohorts keep saying the same thing.."I keep wanting to get out of this damn county...and they keep dragging me right back in"...
I keep trying to get out of this thread but you folks keep piling on. So one last thought. The "restraint" you speak so highly of is perhaps just a method to create plausible deniability.
Thanks for this last thought, Hoot N Annie.
For years, I worked on crisis intervention teams with police officers and watched the guff that people dished out under the mistaken belief that LEOs have to put up with anything.
This is a misperception.
LEOs are not required to let people shoot at them.
It is horrible that this guy was killed.
He could have stayed back in Arizona and taken care of the foster boys he was being paid to take care of.
He could have stepped out the vehicle at the first roadblock instead of running the roadblock and tearing on down the road.
When he drove into the snowbank in front of the second roadblock, he could have put his hands in the air and waited for the handcuffs.
Instead, he played out the scenario where he sacrificed himself to be a martyr for the cause.
He wasn't feeble, old man who didn't know which end is up. He was in his fifties and knew exactly what he was doing. If he didn't want to be shot, then reaching inside his jacket at that moment was a damn poor idea.
For years, I worked on crisis intervention teams with police officers and watched the guff that people dished out under the mistaken belief that LEOs have to put up with anything.
This is a misperception.
LEOs are not required to let people shoot at them.
It is horrible that this guy was killed.
He could have stayed back in Arizona and taken care of the foster boys he was being paid to take care of.
He could have stepped out the vehicle at the first roadblock instead of running the roadblock and tearing on down the road.
When he drove into the snowbank in front of the second roadblock, he could have put his hands in the air and waited for the handcuffs.
Instead, he played out the scenario where he sacrificed himself to be a martyr for the cause.
He wasn't feeble, old man who didn't know which end is up. He was in his fifties and knew exactly what he was doing. If he didn't want to be shot, then reaching inside his jacket at that moment was a damn poor idea.
It's obvious that many issues have come to light by virtue of the Bundy theatrics of late, those attempting to tie the actions of Bundy and others on the Malheur range to a kind of patriotism are simply delusional and are considered to be the tacit support of movements that follow the Posse Comitatus thinking that denies the validity of a central government in local affairs. The "Posse," taken literally, simply connotes the powers of a county Sheriff to round up the community in order to enforce local laws. This notion of government at the federal level as a thing to be challenged emanates from these old ideas of the law as a purely local affair.
So many in this nation have come to believe that government is the enemy, as though it is something we should fear and loathe. But, on closer scrutiny the truth reveals quite a different story, it is the hatred of ANY authority that riles these rural constitutional scholars, and that is where the masses of ranchers and farmers take a decidedly different tack on things. The Bundy's went to the town of Burns to "educate" according to Lisa Bundy, but looking around at the rag tag bunch that went with Bundy to the Malheur left one with the distinct feeling that trouble was inevitable.
Jon Krakauer's book, Under The Banner of Heaven gives a revealing view into the twisted minds of those who follow a fundamental form of Mormonism, in that mindset there are no legitimate laws made by men, only the followers own literal interpretation of things taken from their religious tenets. This kind of theo-jurisprudence is a common backdrop for what the Bundy's have tried in vain to sell as a kind of constitutional beef with the feds, but those in the Mormon fundamentalist crowd know that Bundy is simply acting on his own religious beliefs.
I'm guessing that many who post in defense of the Bundy's "stand" against the BLM and it's policies are more than a bit embarrassed over the fact that their own take on the BLM's policies are being fronted by the likes of Bundy and the gang of tough talking miscreants who rolled over when the going got tough. As for those here who are finding it troubling that LaVoy Finicum was shot I'd have to say that LaVoy had every chance in the world to walk away, but, there was that little voice in Finicum's head that told him he would be alright if he just "believed" deeply enough, he did, but it didn't matter. I hope his death serves to enlighten those who would talk highly of God's power, but strap on a gun, just to be sure...
Protest leader Ammon Bundy has asked, through his attorney, that the remaining occupiers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon go home.
"To those remaining at the refuge, I love you. Let us take this fight from here. Please stand down. Go home and hug your families," Bundy said in a statement. "This fight is ours for now in the courts. Please go home."
Too bad Bundy never learned the difference between playing revolutionary and being one.
So, as long as Ammon Bundy got to play Leader Of The Revolution, he was all about principles. Standing firm. Fighting for perceived rights (such as, not paying heavily-subsidized, way-below-market grazing fees). Never surrendering.
But as soon as his ass is in a jail cell and he doesn't have his playmates anymore, they all need to go home because maybe that'll help him with the plea deal he eventually cuts. It sure is all about him.
I can't say I'm surprised...
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