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Old 02-18-2016, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Suburb of Chicago
31,848 posts, read 17,528,391 times
Reputation: 29384

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yabbhadou View Post
Apple has opened up devices before. This is not a first time they were asked.
So you've read nothing on the topic?

They have not done what is being asked of them before. They would need to create a system to do this. What part of that are you not comprehending?
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Old 02-18-2016, 01:31 PM
 
932 posts, read 894,874 times
Reputation: 856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yabbhadou View Post
Apple has opened up devices before. This is not a first time they were asked.
I was just reading that. But that was on their old OS which they could. The newer OS 8 and newer is unbreakable


Apple Unlocked iPhones for the Feds 70 Times Before - The Daily Beast
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Old 02-18-2016, 01:53 PM
 
2,936 posts, read 2,325,483 times
Reputation: 6690
When you join CD you create a password, this password is then encrypted so that the people who run CD can't use it to access your account or find your password and give it to you if you can't remember it. That's why if you forget your password YOU have to reset, no one else can.

This is how most Internet accounts like Facebook or Gmail that require a password are protected.

It's in everyone's best interest that nobody can hack in to your phone.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
7,058 posts, read 9,041,543 times
Reputation: 15633
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.strangelove
...If the FBI wants to do it, let them do it. It is not the duty of any citizen, business or human, to help the FBI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
When I think of the millions of people over the centuries who have fought and died and otherwise sacrificed for their country, to hear a statement like yours make me sick to my stomach.
As a former soldier, who has made some of those sacrifices (though fortunately not dead, but coming close more than once), your response makes *me* sick.

When we take the Oath of Service, we do not swear to protect the FBI or any other agency. We swear to "...protect and defend the Constitution...from all enemies...foreign and domestic..."

The rights and freedoms of the citizens, guaranteed by the Constitution, take precedence over the desires of the FBI and other government agencies to intrude on the lives and rights of the citizens. I did not serve, fight and sacrifice to see this country turned into a Communist/Fascist/whatever dictatorship/police state where the citizens are forced to do whatevertheheck the FBI or any other police agency says, where they have unlimited power to do as they please in complete disregard for the Constitution.

While I am certainly not displeased to see these terrorist get whacked, and I would not be unhappy to see their comrades utterly annihilated, doing so at the expense of our own rights and freedoms is simply NOT acceptable. I see little difference in the end results of the terrorist using guns and bombs, and the FBI's attempts at wielding their version of terrorism. (Ya, I went there.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
Is plotting mass murder a "private matter"? The owners of this phone have already committed a crime. They opened fire at a holiday party. They forfeited their rights.
That's right, the terrorists forfeited their rights, in the most permanent way. What they did is done, as are they.

But we are not talking about *their* rights. We are talking about the rights of millions of US citizens and their Constitutional protections against illegal search and seizure (and others). We are not talking about the FBI getting into *ONE* phone, but getting into *EVERY* phone...whenever they feel like it.

This is not about the data on one device. Do you know how they analyze the contents of a hard drive? They CLONE the drive and examine the cloned data so that they do not damage the original or run the risk of booting the drive and needing to find passwords and break encryption, and if failing having the contents wiped. They can make as many clones as they want/need, and examine the data, and attempt to break any encryption scheme that might be there.

They could do that with the phone too- remove the chips so that they are separated from the operating system which cannot then delete the data, read the data in the registers of the chips and reproduce it in EEPROMS or any other method that is suitable, and then they would be free to make all the attempts to break the encryption that their little hearts desired. They do not need Apple's permission or assistance for this, and they have massive amounts of computing power available, together with their own squad of geeks.

They could even buy a bunch of similar phones, and experiment with them to their hearts' content, with impunity and no danger of destroying any of the data on the terrorist's phone. Perhaps they already have. Perhaps, it would even be possible to swap chips into an unlocked phone and read the data (I don't know anything about how the Apple devices work, I'm just pulling this out of my butt...but the thought comes from the fact that I have done this with other devices). I don't think it would be impossible to clone the chips, and phone as many times as they wanted, and go through all the possible combinations until they hit the right one and unlocked the data, without destroying the original.

So, what is it, that they REALLY want?

I'm guessing that the Apple encryption scheme exceeds 256-bit AES and they have been unable to crack it. I'll go out on a limb and guess further, that the encryption scheme is strong enough that it would take quantum computers (that haven't been invented yet) to be able to break it in a reasonable amount of time.

So, probably, what they REALLY want, is for Apple to give up the details of the encryption scheme and make them a key that will open EVERY Apple phone and bypass the security.

I suspect that it is, in fact, not possible for Apple to do this, but the short-sighted, narrow-minded feebs don't want to believe it. The fact is, that there already exist in the public domain encryption schemes exceeding 2,048 bits that even all of the supercomputers owned by the gov, working in parallel, without years of dedicated time to that single task. There has been no limit on the development of such schemes- only on the export of them to other countries.

*I* think, that failing in a brute-force attack on the phone, they are engaging in a brute-force attack on the company instead...and, perhaps, not coincidentally, a brute-force attack on the rights of ALL citizens. This must not be allowed. It will be a sad day indeed for this country if the courts do not stop this...ordinarily, I would have been reasonably sure that the Supreme Court would strike it down quickly, if it made it there, but the absence of Mr. Scalia leaves me less confident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
It should be less secure. Would anyone have argued, back in the day of pay phones, that pay phones shouldn't be monitored for criminal activity?
They absolutely would. The fact remains that even though the phones were publicly available, there was still an expectation of privacy by the citizens using them, which would require a search warrant in order to be able to tap them. Such a warrant would be excessively broad because it would violate the rights of many [innocent] citizens, including the right to due process, and it would amount to an unconstitutional search of citizens who were not suspected of anything unless there were a way to ensure that ONLY the calls made by the suspect named in the warrant were recorded.

Do you know of any cases of such a warrant to tap a public pay-phone being issued? I have never heard of it being done. In fact, the US Supreme Court ruled 7-1 in favor of Katz (one justice did not vote), in the 1967 case Katz v. United States, that the recording of his calls, even though the device was affixed to the exterior of the phone booth, amounted to a violation of the 4th Amendment and constituted a warrantless search. The majority opinion affirmed the expectation of privacy even though the device in question was a public pay phone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
Why would the government want to listen in on honest citizens? Remember the abuse in Watergate and with the Nixon Plumbers wasn't the gathering of information, it was its politicization.
Are you really that naive? They would listen to (and watch) *everyone* if they could...and that is the very reason why our rights are enumerated in the Constitution as they are. I have worked/trained with personnel from a number of agencies, and I can assure you that there are a frightening number who would stop at nothing to monitor anyone and everyone, regardless of being suspected of a crime, if they thought they could get away with it. In fact, *some* have been *caught* doing it, and exposed, creating considerable uproar, consternation and outrage among the citizens. Where have you been that you have not seen this?

If it were not for the Constitution, and vigilance by the ACLU and others, I have no doubt that we would be living as in George Orwell's '1984'. Sadly, recent actions such as the so-called 'Patriot' Act have sent us further down that road despite the good arguments against it. If this thing against Apple is upheld, it will be one more step down that very bad road.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Trieste
957 posts, read 1,128,381 times
Reputation: 793
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsch View Post
Essentially, the FBI wants Apple to write a modified version of the Apple operating system that the FBI can install on the cell phone. This version would allow the FBI full access to the phone.

The FBI says they will use this special operating system only this one time. Many doubt this.

Anybody who holds unconventional views not liked by the government, especially conservative views, should be opposed to this. The government is looking for any excuse to come after them.
I totally oppose this
if the FBI want this then FBI should launch a public contract, spend money and buy the software
no way FBI or whoever, can force someone to invest money he doesn't wanna do
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Old 02-18-2016, 03:31 PM
 
7,185 posts, read 3,682,060 times
Reputation: 3174
What was that quote about giving up freedoms to be kept safe not resulting in being safe? I back Apple on this, we as a country have been way too eager to give up freedoms and privacy to be 'kept safe', after all, GW kept us safe even though 9/11 happened on his watch, right Jeb?
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Old 02-18-2016, 04:12 PM
 
14,771 posts, read 17,069,253 times
Reputation: 20658
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Will someone with some actual knowledge come on here and chime in?

It is not about Apple breaking into the phone, it is that if one phone is broken to, all of them are capable of being broken into. This is essentially demanding a master key be made that will actually unlock every house and building in the city. The resources dumped into making a hack proof system would be destroyed, opening the door for hackers. So the government essentially wants to expose millions of people and businesses to hackers after businesses like Apple have spent a considerable amount of resources to make their systems as hack proof as possible.

There is no "just unlock this phone and be done with it"; you think Apple would put up such a fight if it was over something that trivial?
ugh! I posted this on the P&OC thread, but.. posting again here.

Troy Hunt is quite respected in the industry. His piece, looks at the tech/company and global implications.

decent read:

Troy Hunt: Everything you need to know about the Apple versus FBI case
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Old 02-18-2016, 04:23 PM
 
Location: La Mesa Aka The Table
9,802 posts, read 11,482,472 times
Reputation: 11880
It's nice to see the right and left on the same page for once. Apple should not budge on this issue.
The same FBI that, oh Never mind!
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Old 02-18-2016, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
7,058 posts, read 9,041,543 times
Reputation: 15633
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsch View Post
Essentially, the FBI wants Apple to write a modified version of the Apple operating system that the FBI can install on the cell phone. This version would allow the FBI full access to the phone.

The FBI says they will use this special operating system only this one time. Many doubt this.
I would like to know, just how it is that anyone thinks that they are going to "install an operating system", on a phone that they can't access in the first place!!??

It's a little computer, with an operating system. You must have access to it, in order to install something on it. The password prevents access, if you can't access it, you can't install anything on it.

Or is there some little trick with these particular computer/phones that I don't know about, that lets you replace the operating system without having access to the operating system?

This does not make sense to me. Am I crazy?
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Old 02-18-2016, 04:51 PM
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11,395 posts, read 13,370,157 times
Reputation: 6707
Yup I'm with Apple here. But it's a shame we live in a world where you have to rely on Apple to protect us and not our own government.
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