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Old 04-27-2016, 03:44 PM
 
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These can be tough cases.

In general, I support peoples rights to make decisions in their kids lives but obviously somewhere it crosses over into endangerment issues. That can be somewhat of a judgment call.

In this particular case, without sitting through the actual courtroom case I don't have any really opinion other than the court rendered it's verdict.
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Old 04-27-2016, 06:44 PM
 
13,488 posts, read 9,628,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I had no idea.

Faith Healing a Parental Right in Idaho | Al Jazeera America

How can this not be a violation of the civil rights of the child?
That was a helluva read. The same people that let kids die rather than give them some penicillin, who let kids with spina biffida crawl on the ground for lack of a wheelchair are considered Christians and supported by the conservative politicians in the state while the same politicians are against the right of a family to abort a profoundly deformed fetus before it is ever able to feel pain?

( how's that for a run-on sentence?)

The cognitive dissonance just blows my mind.
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Old 04-27-2016, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
These can be tough cases.

In general, I support peoples rights to make decisions in their kids lives but obviously somewhere it crosses over into endangerment issues. That can be somewhat of a judgment call.

In this particular case, without sitting through the actual courtroom case I don't have any really opinion other than the court rendered it's verdict.

Here's an article with an attached copy of the summary from the physician who took care of the baby when he was in extremis.

Alberta toddler's final days before meningitis death detailed in physician's report at parents' trial - Calgary - CBC News

The jury came to a verdict in just a few hours.
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Old 04-27-2016, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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This is from a former naturopath.

Canadian physicians criticize naturopaths in wake of Ezekiel Stephan's death - Naturopathic Diaries

And her take on naturopaths taking care of children. She gives a comparison of the training of a physician compared to a naturopath:

Naturopathic pediatrics is not safe - Naturopathic Diaries
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Old 04-27-2016, 09:45 PM
 
Location: too far from the sea
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These ignorant people are even more guilty because they KNEW that their child had never been vaccinated against anything. That would mean that they had to be even more watchful than ordinary parents who had vaccinated. They knew their unvaccinated child would be susceptible to illnesses that other children couldn't get.

Naturopaths have their place and that place is in the treatment of long term, chronic illnesses and in prevention. But standard doctors are the ones to go to when there is something needing immediate treatment like this. I can understand giving him some ginger when he was first sick--that's a time honored treatment for a cold or nausea. But when he didn't get better, DO SOMETHING! Maple syrup???

Their nurse friend even told them to take him to a doctor!

When I was a kid, there was a child in my class who died of cancer because her parents belonged to some strange religion that forbade doctors. By the time they finally gave in, it was way too late.
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Old 04-28-2016, 10:46 AM
 
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I followed this case from start to finish. Alberta’s former chief medical examiner Dr. Anny Sauvageau testified that she disagreed with the prosecution's expert that the boy had bacterial meningitis. She believes that viral meningitis was the much more likely culprit and that it was a viral throat infection that caused an obstruction in his airway, leading to him to stop breathing. She blames the EMS for not getting him breathing faster. The ambulance that met the parents on their way to the hospital was not properly equipped (in spite of the EMT's asking for the lifesaving equipment to be put back in the ambulance prior to this boy's tragic death).
Alberta’s former chief medical examiner testifies in Lethbridge meningitis trial | Globalnews.ca


The boy's symptoms much more closely matched viral meningitis then bacterial. Most people recover from this on their own. There are no vaccines for viral meningitis nor can it be helped with antibiotics.


They went to the hospital one day after being advised to by their nurse friend. By then it was too late. Should they have sought medical care sooner? Yes. In retrospect the parents wished they had. Should they spend 5 years in jail for prison and lose custody of their kids over their mistake? I don't agree. Whoever made the call to take the lifesaving equipment off of the ambulance also contributed to the death and if the parents go to prison then so should the person who made that decision which most definitely contributed to this boy's death.

Last edited by MissTerri; 04-28-2016 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 04-28-2016, 11:05 AM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,279,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The jury came to a verdict in just a few hours.
Not true. The jury deliberated for 5 hours on Monday before retiring for the night. Deliberations continued on Tuesday morning and the verdict came in on Tuesday afternoon.
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Old 04-28-2016, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I followed this case from start to finish. Alberta’s former chief medical examiner Dr. Anny Sauvageau testified that she disagreed with the prosecution's expert that the boy had bacterial meningitis. She believes that viral meningitis was the much more likely culprit and that it was a viral throat infection that caused an obstruction in his airway, leading to him to stop breathing. She blames the EMS for not getting him breathing faster. The ambulance that met the parents on their way to the hospital was not properly equipped (in spite of the EMT's asking for the lifesaving equipment to be put back in the ambulance prior to this boy's tragic death). [/url]


The boy's symptoms much more closely matched viral meningitis then bacterial. Most people recover from this on their own. There are no vaccines for viral meningitis nor can it be helped with antibiotics.


They went to the hospital one day after being advised to by their nurse friend. By then it was too late. Should they have sought medical care sooner? Yes. In retrospect the parents wished they had. Should they spend 5 years in jail for prison and lose custody of their kids over their mistake? I don't agree. Whoever made the call to take the lifesaving equipment off of the ambulance also contributed to the death and if the parents go to prison then so should the person who made that decision which most definitely contributed to this boy's death.
Sauvageau did not examine Ezekiel. Apparently she was a whistleblower with what sounds like valid concerns about the way the ME's office was doing certain things and now is suing for wrongful termination. She has reason to dislike the DOJ, and discrediting the current ME would help her case. Her allegations are not compatible with the autopsy results.

Autopsy confirmed 18-month-old Alberta boy died of meningitis, medical examiner testifies | Globalnews.ca

"Adeagbo [the medical examiner who did the autopsy] said paramedics’ attempts to revive the child for seven to eight minutes were not the reason he became brain dead."

"He stated the toddler was already brain dead when EMS first saw the child. He went on to say the brain acts differently when it has a lack of oxygen, compared to when it’s reacting to meningitis."

Also, Ezekiel had an empyema - a collection of pus between the lung and the chest wall. That means the bacteria that caused the brain infection were also infecting the lung. Viral meningitis would not also cause an empyema.

The most common cause of empyema in children under five is the pneumococcus, which can also cause meningitis, and there is a vaccine that covers the most common variants. Hib can also cause pneumonia and meningitis but less commonly produces an empyema.

The first symptoms Ezekiel had were pulmonary: wheezing. His mother called her friend the nurse who listened to his breathing over the telephone and suggested he might have croup, which the mom then looked up on Google. The child developed bacterial pneumonia first and the bacteria, most probably pneumococcus, got into his bloodstream and spread to his brain. The neck stiffness characteristic of meningitis appeared later. Had his pneumonia been promptly treated, he would never have developed the meningitis.

I have seen reports of instances where parents lose one child because they refuse to get him competent medical care, then go on to lose another because they do the same blasted thing again. I believe the parents are likely to get less than the maximum five years; I wish they would. I hope they are locked up at least as long as it takes to make the other children wards of the state and get them up to date on their vaccinations. When the Stephans are free, they are probably going to go right back to the practices that caused this fiasco.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Not true. The jury deliberated for 5 hours on Monday before retiring for the night. Deliberations continued on Tuesday morning and the verdict came in on Tuesday afternoon.
That's what I said, a few hours. One lawyer who posted about the case on another forum had expected deliberations to go on for a week.
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Old 04-28-2016, 02:23 PM
 
8,546 posts, read 5,279,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Sauvageau did not examine Ezekiel. Apparently she was a whistleblower with what sounds like valid concerns about the way the ME's office was doing certain things and now is suing for wrongful termination. She has reason to dislike the DOJ, and discrediting the current ME would help her case. Her allegations are not compatible with the autopsy results.
She had previously raised concerns about political and bureaucratic interference in death investigations.

Regarding Sauvageau's whistleblower case. She sounds like a woman who was ethical and refused to lie for the Crown who also happens to the prosecutor in this particular case.
Quote:
"Currently, there is regular political and bureaucratic interference in all aspects of the death investigation system, from the determination of cause and manner of death, to the development and implementation of policy related to death investigation," <snip> Towle said Sauvageau's allegations of political interference are serious and require an immediate independent review "to protect the integrity of the system for the government's side, but also for the office of the chief medical examiner.
Anny Sauvageau alleges political, bureaucratic interference - Edmonton - CBC News

During testimony during the Stephan case:
Quote:
Dr. Sauvageau was questioned on bias and relevance, and to the reasons for her no longer being the Chief M.E.. The court heard of her refusal to be influenced by unethical and perhaps illegal influences. "My soul is not for sale," she said emotionally, and is the reason why she chose to expose the corruption rather than "keep it secret". This eventually cost her her position as Chief.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/fo...143400545.html

Quote:
Dr. Sauvageau concludes the meningitis found at autopsy is likely viral meningitis, and supported her assertion with science. The samples taken of the infected meninges of the brain (pus) revealed an abundance of lymphocytes and other white blood cells associated with viral infections. The usual white blood cell associated with bacterial infections is neutrophils. There wasn't an abundance of neutrophils as Dr. Adeagbo had reported. There were no bacteria identified to conclude Bacterial Meningitis.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/fo...143400545.html

I wish I could quote the whole article because there are so many important points regarding the autopsy disagreement. I encourage you and anyone interested in learning more to read the link in it's entirety. It's more detailed then many of the short news articles that came out about the trial.


Quote:
That's what I said, a few hours. One lawyer who posted about the case on another forum had expected deliberations to go on for a week.
"A few" means three. Making it seem like the jury only deliberated for three hours insinuates that this was an open and shut case. The truth is they deliberated for closer to twelve hours.

Last edited by MissTerri; 04-28-2016 at 02:35 PM..
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Old 04-28-2016, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,569 posts, read 26,190,928 times
Reputation: 26618
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
She had previously raised concerns about political and bureaucratic interference in death investigation.

Regarding Sauvageau's whistleblower case. She sounds like a woman who was ethical and refused to lie for the Crown who also happens to the prosecution in this particular case.

I wish I could quote the whole article because there are so many important points regarding the autopsy disagreement. I encourage you and anyone interested in learning more to read the link in it's entirety. It's more detailed then many of the short news articles that came out about the trial.
Sauvageau alleges that the inabilty of the EMTs to manage Ezekiel's airway was the cause of death. Ezekiel's pupils were fixed and dilated when the EMTs got to him. He was already brain dead at that point.

You frequently claim medical studies are biased because of financial considerations. If you cannot see Sauvageau's clear conflict of interest, the jury did.

Quote:
"A few" means three. Making it seem like the jury only deliberated for three hours insinuates that this was an open and shut case. The truth is they deliberated for closer to twelve hours.
" 'A few' means three." Really?

Few | Define Few at Dictionary.com

"adjective, fewer, fewest.
1.
not many but more than one"

Like I said, the deliberations only lasted a few hours. It was an open and shut case. The Stephans deprived their child of one of the "necessaries" of life, competent medical care, resulting in his death.

It will be interesting to see if the jury is polled after the sentencing is over.

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 04-28-2016 at 03:02 PM..
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