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Old 05-31-2016, 03:50 PM
 
76 posts, read 48,568 times
Reputation: 86

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourian View Post
You missed her point entirely.
No actually, I didn't. Her point - as I read it - was that it all boils down to human interest in wild animals. We keep them in zoos because it's more interesting for us to see them up close than it is to see them in National Geographic, etc.


Yeah, I read the bit about "conservation" i.e. conserving them so we (humans) can have them around for our enjoyment - as opposed to just leaving them alone to live their natural lives.


You may think that I missed her point, but I don't think that you read between the lines of what she actually said.

 
Old 05-31-2016, 03:51 PM
 
7,080 posts, read 3,778,159 times
Reputation: 10569
The whole premise of this (and every) headline is wrong; it's not been established that the animal HAD to be killed IN ORDER TO protect the child. More than one child -- as unbelievable as it is, this has happened before -- has been safely removed from a gorilla enclosure with no loss of life. In logic, we'd call that... A false premise! The beast was being curious and, if anything, protective; the crowd not screaming like a bunch of banshees would've helped.
 
Old 05-31-2016, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,839 posts, read 1,576,851 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradPiff View Post
It's interesting People are more upset over this gorilla dying than tamir rice(a child) being murdered the police
Perhaps they wouldn't be more upset if the gorilla had a replica gun modified to look like a real weapon that it kept pointing at people.
 
Old 05-31-2016, 04:02 PM
 
76 posts, read 48,568 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundaydrive00 View Post
Except its pretty much impossible for animals to have zero intervention from humans unless we round them all up and put them on an uninhabited island. Unless humans go extinct, animals are not going to be able to choose whether or not they want to come into contact with people, so why not try to make the best out of the situation? Is it not better to at least try to save those animals who are going extinct? I would think the animals would want their species to continue, after all isn't that the whole point of breeding?
I am simply pointing out the double standard here: many of us seem to think that it's perfectly ok to "intervene" in the lives of wild animals...but when they intervene in our lives (just by doing what comes naturally to them) they are killed.


We put them in these unnatural situations, toy with their natural habitats, place them in captivity, etc. - then, when they respond to us with all they have - their natural instincts (dragging that boy around in the water), they are killed...and I think it's wrong.


I am not saying that the child should have been sacrificed for the ape - but why do we have to set these animals up to fail; insisting on keeping them in our environments, but with no regard to their natural instincts?


We need to leave them alone as much as possible or this kind of thing will continue to happen.
 
Old 05-31-2016, 04:03 PM
Status: "Finally Done With C-D BYE BYE" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,947 posts, read 21,473,086 times
Reputation: 15430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundaydrive00 View Post
Yes, I think they do. A few years ago we did a "behind the scenes" tour of Big Cat Country at the zoo. I work at an animal shelter, so I understand the behavior of sad, neglected animals. These animals were not sad. They were coming up to the fence, having the zoo keeper pet them, They were playing with the enrichment toys they had in their habitats, showing off for the cameras...

If they were in the wild, they would probably be dead considering the mortality rate of tiger cubs is 50%. Most often they don't die from predators, but from freezing or starving to death. They're not starving to death in zoos. They're not spending all of their waking hours hunting for food, not knowing if they will be able to eat or die. Tigers usually have a lifespan of about 10 years in the wild and 18 in captivity. Its not depression that is allowing them to live a longer life.
I can add to this as a former Marine World Africa USA employee, I used to be around all the animals from those on the Veldt to Marine mammals and it was my experience that they were treated better than many humans and in fact enjoyed contact with the trainers/handlers. I remember one dolphin in particular who use to swim up when I was standing next to their tank, stop and roll over to get his belly rubbed. He did this every time I was standing there talking so I'm "guessing" he knew that if he did that he'd get my attention.
I used to watch the interaction with the young animals (born there) and their trainers and it was quite a lot like a person with their family pet. I know for a FACT the trainers/handlers/workers thought of each animal as part of their extended family.

So yes, I do believe they were happy, especially since they didn't have to fight, sometimes to the death for their food.
 
Old 05-31-2016, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,790 posts, read 12,635,810 times
Reputation: 10007
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayOlive View Post
No actually, I didn't. Her point - as I read it - was that it all boils down to human interest in wild animals. We keep them in zoos because it's more interesting for us to see them up close than it is to see them in National Geographic, etc.


Yeah, I read the bit about "conservation" i.e. conserving them so we (humans) can have them around for our enjoyment - as opposed to just leaving them alone to live their natural lives.


You may think that I missed her point, but I don't think that you read between the lines of what she actually said.
But we don't do anything as a whole hive mind, do we? So I don't see how what you are saying is going to stop the poachers and big game hunters from doing what they do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere View Post
The whole premise of this (and every) headline is wrong; it's not been established that the animal HAD to be killed IN ORDER TO protect the child. More than one child -- as unbelievable as it is, this has happened before -- has been safely removed from a gorilla enclosure with no loss of life. In logic, we'd call that... A false premise! The beast was being curious and, if anything, protective; the crowd not screaming like a bunch of banshees would've helped.
What you are doing is called Monday morning quarterbacking. And unless you are a zoologist or animal behaviorist, your opinion isn't very compelling to me. Now, if you want to put your life on the line and test out this logic, then by all means.
 
Old 05-31-2016, 04:16 PM
 
4,748 posts, read 6,146,270 times
Reputation: 6711
Quote:
Originally Posted by luzianne View Post
Can you imagine the outrage if the zoo had done nothing and the gorilla killed the child?
To be honest, I'm not sure there would have been as much as there is now.
 
Old 05-31-2016, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,839 posts, read 1,576,851 times
Reputation: 4521
Quote:
Originally Posted by reed067 View Post
READ the article above...don't skim though it. The article addresses that.


Stop using sites that can be edited by just anyone.
Here's a scientific paper for you, good enough ?

Surplus killing by carnivores - Kruuk - 1972 - Journal of Zoology - Wiley Online Library

And the article you refer to does not "address" anything, it states the fact (wolves killing more than they need to eat) and says it's "unnatural" because the sheep are domesticated and thus (in their opinion) lack the proper survival / defense instincts. Which, again, is utter BS because the wolfs do the same kind of surplus killing sprees on wild animals

Wolf Pack Slaughters 19 Elk in Rare 'Surplus Killing'

And the other predator species like foxes, weasels, etc also engage in surplus killing. Which the article does mention.

This is a natural phenomenon, not something that only the "evil" humans are responsible for. A killer is a killer, and sometimes they kill for fun.
 
Old 05-31-2016, 04:55 PM
 
28,906 posts, read 45,202,743 times
Reputation: 45815
Anybody who has never had a child who ran off when their backs were turned, please raise their hands....

Anyone? Anyone?

Now, on to the Humaniacs who felt the gorilla shouldn't have been shot, we have this testimony from an expert zookeeper who worked with gorillas for years:

I am going to try to clear up a few things that have been weighing on me about Harambe and the Cinci Zoo since I read the news this afternoon.
I have worked with Gorillas as a zookeeper while in my twenties (before children) and they are my favorite animal (out of dozens) that I have ever worked closely with. I am gonna go ahead and list a few facts, thoughts and opinions for those of you that aren't familiar with the species itself, or how a zoo operates in emergency situations.
Now Gorillas are considered 'gentle giants' at least when compared with their more aggressive cousins the chimpanzee, but a 400+ pound male in his prime is as strong as roughly 10 adult humans. What can you bench press? OK, now multiply that number by ten. An adult male silverback gorilla has one job, to protect his group. He does this by bluffing or intimidating anything that he feels threatened by.
Gorillas are considered a Class 1 mammal, the most dangerous class of mammals in the animal kingdom, again, merely due to their size and strength. They are grouped in with other apes, tigers, lions, bears, etc.
While working in an AZA accredited zoo with Apes, keepers DO NOT work in contact with them. Meaning they do NOT go in with these animals. There is always a welded mesh barrier between the animal and the humans.
In more recent decades, zoos have begun to redesign enclosures, removing all obvious caging and attempting to create a seamless view of the animals for the visitor to enjoy watching animals in a more natural looking habitat. this is great until little children begin falling into exhibits which of course can happen to anyone, especially in a crowded zoo-like setting.
I have watched this video over again, and with the silverback's postering, and tight lips, it's pretty much the stuff of any keeper's nightmares, and I have had MANY while working with them. This job is not for the complacent. Gorillas are kind, curious, and sometimes silly, but they are also very large, very strong animals. I always brought my OCD to work with me. checking and rechecking locks to make sure my animals and I remained separated before entering to clean.
I keep hearing that the Gorilla was trying to protect the boy. I do not find this to be true. Harambe reaches for the boys hands and arms, but only to position the child better for his own displaying purposes.
Males do very elaborate displays when highly agitated, slamming and dragging things about. Typically they would drag large branches, barrels and heavy weighted balls around to make as much noise as possible. Not in an effort to hurt anyone or anything (usually) but just to intimidate. It was clear to me that he was reacting to the screams coming from the gathering crowd.
Harambe was most likely not going to separate himself from that child without seriously hurting him first (again due to mere size and strength, not malicious intent) Why didn't they use treats? well, they attempted to call them off exhibit (which animals hate), the females in the group came in, but Harambe did not. What better treat for a captive animal than a real live kid!
They didn't use Tranquilizers for a few reasons, A. Harambe would've taken too long to become immobilized, and could have really injured the child in the process as the drugs used may not work quickly enough depending on the stress of the situation and the dose B. Harambe would've have drowned in the moat if immobilized in the water, and possibly fallen on the boy trapping him and drowning him as well.
Many zoos have the protocol to call on their expertly trained dart team in the event of an animal escape or in the event that a human is trapped with a dangerous animal. They will evaluate the scene as quickly and as safely as possible, and will make the most informed decision as how they will handle the animal.
I can't point fingers at anyone in this situation, but we need to really evaluate the safety of the animal enclosures from the visitor side. Not impeding that view is a tough one, but there should be no way that someone can find themselves inside of an animal's exhibit.
I know one thing for sure, those keepers lost a beautiful, and I mean gorgeous silverback and friend. I feel their loss with them this week. As educators and conservators of endangered species, all we can do is shine a light on the beauty and majesty of these animals in hopes to spark a love and a need to keep them from vanishing from our planet. Child killers, they are not. It's unfortunate for the conservation of the species, and the loss of revenue a beautiful zoo such as Cinci will lose. tragedy all around.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
 
Old 05-31-2016, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 6,823,128 times
Reputation: 37337
So it turns out that the sniper who took out this gorilla is some dentist from Minnesota...
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