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Old 06-16-2016, 11:10 AM
 
6,119 posts, read 3,061,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
And that gives me every reason to believe that your idea of "perfection" is an omnipotent Nanny-State

Exactly! And at what point does the need for responsibility overtake the desire for an unattainable level of absolute security? The financial meltdown of 2008 and the idiocy of "too big to fail" were a direct result of the natural human desire (albeit institutionalized) to test the "safeguards" devised (albeit under good intentions) back in the 1930's The cycle will merely repeat itself.

And I'm a long time freelance bookkeeper and tax preparer who abandoned pursuit of CPA certification because I couldn't stomach the thought of a rigid schedule, under constant micromanagement, subject to the most mundane rules of "Korporate" conformity, in order to satisfy the hang-ups of sheltered clients who often have NO concept of daily life in the rest of the world.

I'll cite another painful example -- the massacre at Sandy Hook elementary in the heart of upscale New England. Please don't waste your breath, or my time, by arguing that greater interference by Big Brother and Sister could have prevented it. Adam Lanza was the end product of a culture that sought too much socialized, and collective security in the pursuit of an unattainable goal.
I never alluded to absolute security. I've said precautions.

And again, I have no solutions to absolutely prevent things like Sandy Hook or the Orlando club massacre. Taking steps means movement in a direction to attempt to better something. There will never be an absolute fix to these things. But those who are ignorant and waste my time arguing there is too much government already or too much law blah blah blah want things to be status quo. Status quo doesn't work, nor am I saying change will. But we must move with the times, and times are definitely changing.
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Old 06-16-2016, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,383 posts, read 6,794,913 times
Reputation: 14439
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmancpa View Post
I never alluded to absolute security. I've said precautions.

And again, I have no solutions to absolutely prevent things like Sandy Hook or the Orlando club massacre. Taking steps means movement in a direction to attempt to better something. There will never be an absolute fix to these things. But those who are ignorant and waste my time arguing there is too much government already or too much law blah blah blah want things to be status quo. (emphasis added) Status quo doesn't work, nor am I saying change will. But we must move with the times, and times are definitely changing.
As a person with strong libertarian leanings, I don't want the status quo; I do want a cumbersome, over-centralized and mostly-unnecessary security blanket cut down to sensible proportions.

I'm familiar with the writings of Ayn Rand, Karl Hess, Murray Rothbard and others who sought an ideal of "anarchy with a constable", but I've seen enough in my 66 years to recognize that this will never fly in a mature, post-industrial society where people live from paycheck to paycheck and, usually not by choice, on fragile credit. But I do believe that the "safety net" can be more effectively policed by moving portions of it closer to local oversight. There is a substantial portion of the population who are well-versed in just about every means by which "the system" can be exploited, but since the bureaucracy knows that the "problem" cited is the ticket to greater influence and a bigger staff and payroll, the incentive is to create a bigger "problem" for them to "solve".

Of course, "solving" the "problem would kill the golden goose.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 06-16-2016 at 12:17 PM..
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:29 PM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,284 posts, read 50,539,435 times
Reputation: 60183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina14 View Post
I believe the lagoon was manmade. Was it self-contained or connected to a river or marsh? If self-contained, why would Disney allow alligators in it, and then have events on the beach where kids might decide to run into the water? Or is that just normally done everywhere in Florida where there are alligators? But if the lagoon is self-contained, not connected to any other waterway; I don't understand why a family entertainment resort would stock it with alligators...
Despite the horror of the topic, this struck me so funny--the idea that Disney would stock its water with alligators!
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Old 06-17-2016, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
12,131 posts, read 8,109,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmancpa View Post
Let's not discuss fault here. This thread isn't about one side taking legal action and suing the other - that's a different topic.

We're talking about precautions, signs, warnings.

Disney has a choice. Either say they believe they had adequate warnings, or do something more. In my opinion, this one incident leads me to believe they need to do something more. Add more signs, fences, warnings, something.



I agree with the signs having more that is. The problem is that your always going to have that group of people who will tell you that the signs aren't clear or they didn't see them, etc, etc.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:06 AM
 
27,993 posts, read 19,657,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmancpa View Post
Forget semantics.

These are incidents. The child was standing in 1 foot of water when taken by the alligator. Unattended children is only one side of the issue. And those who have had children understand what can happen in a split second, so just looking the way of the parents as the root cause is blind and unfair.

The child was standing in 1 foot of water with an inherent danger in the area. Attended to or not, the space was open for the child to do so, with only a warning sign a child can not read. Responsibility in most all of these tragedies is a two way street.

These debates are no different than inside our government walls. We spend more time pointing fingers of blame than taking action. The schools need to teach children about danger in daily life; parents need to be educated; businesses need to take further precautions. It all has to happen, not just one side.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/morganshana...graves-parents

MANY parents have allowed their children in this same area. There is NO need or use to ascribe judgment to these poor, grieving parents.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:09 AM
 
27,993 posts, read 19,657,034 times
Reputation: 16471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab View Post
Agree with you here. As long as the signs are there, then it's the perpetrator's fault. If someone takes the risk and does something stupid/something they shouldn't do, it's no one's fault but their own. Not sure why anything needs to be changed on the account of what happened--it is simply someone paying the price for their own carelessness. Sad, tragic, of course. But you can't legislate against carelessness/stupidity. Nor, do I think, should you. This kind of activity should result in the appropriate penalties, which sometimes involves loss of a life.
Yes. Totally appropriate that a baby died in this situation.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:03 AM
 
Location: SW Florida
9,116 posts, read 3,932,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina14 View Post
I'm not necessarily saying that the family should sue Disney; but I think there is grounds for a claim. What the courts do with it remains to be seen.

Do you think that if DISNEY had posted signs every 50 ft. or so (or closer) around the lagoon depicting an alligator with its mouth wide open, with the words No Swimming on them, the mother would have gone wading with the child? Could the lagoon be an "attractive nuisance" since it lacked signs that said No Swimming or signs warning of alligators (or both), as would a private individual's unfenced pool?



Even if the family was from Nebraska they should know that Florida has alligators anywhere there is water. However since there were no signs saying "No Swimming - Alligators May Be Present" they probably figured the no swimming sign was not referring to alligators. It's a sad situation and they probably have all the ambulance chasing lawyers calling them up to sue Disney and they will probably win.
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:03 AM
 
9,791 posts, read 7,654,581 times
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From what I read, the father was two feet from the kid.

Alligators do not have to be in water. On dry land, they can move really fast.

Who, in their right mind, would spend hundreds of dollars a night at a place designed for kids, if they knew of the danger. The news today indicates removing alligators was a full time job for a crew working for Disney.

That spot was newish, contained lodges that rent for 2000 a night. People regularly feed the alligators.

If I were that child's grandma, I'd be owning Disney in couple of years and shutting the place down.
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Old 06-17-2016, 02:34 PM
 
4,508 posts, read 1,901,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soviet View Post
Is it really going to be a "slam-dunk" lawsuit? Disney wouldn't be able to just say "No, you moron, you ignored the signs! You're responsible for your own actions!" & not have to pay out? (After all, personal responsibility doesn't exist anymore, does it?) Are lawyers going to be going over the intricacies of "swimming" versus "wading"?

Or would Disney pay out just to get it over with?
They'll pay out. They won't see it go to court. They couldn't survive that kind of bad publicity. Can you just see a Disney attorney arguing that the child or his parents were responsible and should not be compensated? Nope, that's not gonna happen.


They will pay. Big time.


I doubt we'll ever know the millions of dollars. The amount will likely be sealed. Unless FOIA makes it public due to Disney be publicly traded. I don't know how that works.
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Old 06-17-2016, 02:56 PM
 
4,508 posts, read 1,901,989 times
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I saw a blurb on TV that showed an old, abandoned part of Disney left over from when it was built in the 70s. It's completely overgrown, old rusty rides and water slides still standing, but abandoned because newer, slicker rides took over. The abandoned section is a breeding ground for gators. It was not a place you would want to be. Rife with snakes, gators, and who knows what. And it feeds directly into the part where the little boy was killed.


Just as a side note, I visited Disney World before it was officially open. They let us in (me and my boyfriend) and gave us pretty much free rein of the place, and let us ride rides that were already up and operating. It was almost like we were testing the place, lol.
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