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That's why you retreat. At least that's the way it works in Vermont. And junkies these days are on heroin, not pot. It's a national epidemic. Haven't you heard? Even dinky little rural Vermont has a big problem with it. Junkies break into houses. You go to jail if you kill one because B&E isn't a justifiable homicide.
Sure, if you can SAFELY retreat is how most Duty to Retreat laws read. If they break in and don't see you, then sure, get out, even if you live in a stand your ground state. But if they see you, you have no chance to escape if they don't want you to escape. I have no chance of outrunning anyone, and I certainly can't outrun a bullet. Even if they have NO weapon, hands can and have been used to strangle people to death if they catch you.
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
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I like how a few posters like to change the scene of shooting 3 full sized adults clad in black with masks who entered the house uninvited with bad intentions leaving the occupant in a bad situation of defending himself with the gun as one of where the occupant just "mowed" them down. You act as if he was waiting all his life to do this and had preplanned it because he would enjoy "blowing them away" as Ruthfortruth" like to describe his action.
You are just trying to "villanize" him to try to prove your point he should not have shot them.
I've asked Ruthfortruth in 3 posts to back up what she said which she just ignores. I have to figure she doesn't know the answer and she just ignores it for that reason, yet still posts as if she knows these things for fact.
The fact is the shooter will probably go free. It will be investigated, that's only proper. But I think they will find it was a justifiable shooting based on circumstances which many just seem to ignore.
Enough with all these " well in some states" hypotheticals. It was in Oklahoma so we should be looking at Oklahoma law, not Vermont or other states.
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
10,312 posts, read 8,512,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LillyLillyLilly
Sure, if you can SAFELY retreat is how most Duty to Retreat laws read. If they break in and don't see you, then sure, get out, even if you live in a stand your ground state. But if they see you, you have no chance to escape if they don't want you to escape. I have no chance of outrunning anyone, and I certainly can't outrun a bullet. Even if they have NO weapon, hands can and have been used to strangle people to death if they catch you.
Especially if you happen to be on the second floor of a house. Some people think you can just jump out the window. Or what if you're hiding in the basement and they find you, where do you go?
People here keep saying its only a knife or brass knuckles. I'm sure they are okay with being stabbed or beat up as long as the perp goes unharmed.
EVEN IF THEY HAVE NO WEAPON as you say here, it's 3 on one and the three are not dressed for a Saturday hike, unless all black with masks is an Oklahoma thing. I can't understand why some people don't see the measure of threat in this situation.
I'm a muscular person who is pretty strong, but I consider one person entering my house uninvited a threat and three a real big threat.
That's why you retreat. At least that's the way it works in Vermont. And junkies these days are on heroin, not pot. It's a national epidemic. Haven't you heard? Even dinky little rural Vermont has a big problem with it. Junkies break into houses. You go to jail if you kill one because B&E isn't a justifiable homicide.
Here in Southern CA back in 1969 a woman named Abigail Folger tried retreating from the Manson family, she was stabbed to death on the lawn.
It was before my time but talk to anyone who lived here and it rocked this area, gun sales in Los Angeles tripled in a couple of days. Two nights later a repeat. It was the beginning of a new sad era in America of the home invasion.
Her killer Patricia Krenwinkle said she died calling for her mother.
You seem to think you can just run out the front or back door and they're going to let you go.
As I said earlier, if you can get out undetected that you're there, go for it, I wouldn't turn my back on them and hope I can outrun them.
No, not the end, depending on the state. It's not at all that simple. People have ended up in jail for that. That's why it's so important for gun buyers to get training on the laws in their state.
Maybe we should be talking about all the people that hesitated to eliminate the threat when they had a home invasion and were killed.
Even if they don't have obvious weapons, the use of deadly force is justified in this situation. Three unarmed people can easily beat a single person to death using nothing more than their hands and feet.
And while it may not be relevant in this case, one reason "duty to retreat" laws have been replaced with "castle doctrine" laws in most states is that in the hands of an overzealous prosecutor "duty to retreat" laws have led to some totally ridiculous prosecutions. For instance, you're downstairs in the living room reading and your kids are upstairs in bed asleep when home invaders break down the front door. Sure, technically you COULD leave via the back door - but that would mean abandoning your kids upstairs to the tender mercies of the home invaders. Just because a person technically CAN retreat doesn't always mean it's actually a viable option.
Actually, the laws in those states don't require retreat if one has loved ones in the home to defend.
Use of deadly force in the instance presented in the OP is justified only as long as the homeowner is outnumbered. After he shoots two out of three of the bad guys, he can no longer use that particular argument to nail the 3rd guy. At the point that the scenario shifts to a one-on-one situation, it's a different ball game; different legal principles come into play.
And the safest thing for you to do is NOT to confront the intruder and insert yourself into a potentially dangerous situation.
Key words are underlined. In some states, if you kill or seriously injure an intruder, you have to prove that you were at risk of death or grave bodily harm, yourself. You can't use deadly force against someone because you "thought" they might have a gun in their pocket. Homeowners have ended up in jail for that. You need to prove the intruder pulled a gun on you, or moved toward you.
No! You never have to prove your innocence. The prosecutor has to prove your guilt. That is always how it has been, with any crime that you are accused of, hence the words, "innocent until proven guilty". It is NOT "guilty until proven innocent".
The prosecutor has to prove that the intruder did not move towards you or pose any threat. Good luck with that when there were 3 masked people in dark clothing who had brass knuckles, a knife, and were in your home, uninvited. NOR does the intruder have to have a gun to pose a threat. NOR do you have to be "outnumbered".
Even CA, the most liberal state I can think of, has Castle Doctrine which is very similar to Stand Your Ground:
Quote:
California self-defense laws provide that you can't be found guilty of a violent crime that you committed in order to protect yourself, as long as your conduct was reasonable under the circumstances.
For purposes of the self-defense legal defense, “reasonable under the circumstances” means that you need to have:
Reasonably believed that you were in imminent danger of being killed, injured, or touched unlawfully,
Reasonably believed that you needed to use force to prevent that from happening, and
Used no more force than was necessary to prevent that from happening.
Moreover, thanks to California's so-called “stand your ground laws,” you are under no obligation to “retreat” – that is, to run away or try to escape – before you use self-defense to protect yourself.
Self-defense can be a useful legal defense to a number of California crimes, including:
Murder,
Assault with a deadly weapon,
Aggravated battery, and
Battery on a peace officer...
Penal Code Section 198.5
Quote:
...you are allowed to use deadly force within your own home if you have a “reasonable fear of imminent peril or great bodily injury.”
If someone forces his or her way into your home unlawfully, a few things must occur to justify using deadly force:
You knew or had reason to believe the person entered your home unlawfully;
The intruder was acting unlawfully (not a police officer who was doing their job);
There was a reasonable fear of death or injury to you, a family member or another member of the household; and
You or the occupants of your home did not provoke the intruder in any way.
Good Lord some of these responses!! It's no secret my scorn for ammosexuals who think guns make you omnipotent and are the solution to everything; but cmon! This young man is startled in his own home by 3 fully grown masked intruders, plus he has NO idea what weapons they may or may not have. How would any of YOU react? I'd have made the same call! It sickens me that some felt he did something wrong-what was he to do? Wait until they started attacking him? Plus some act like he took some sort of pleasure in doing this-I assure you he did not. I truly hope he is cleared of all charges.
Seeing as it's Oklahoma, he should. This is nothing like the Ersland case. Now had the deceased attackers been minorities, THEN he'd have reason to be concerned, even in Oklahoma, as in America today it is considered racism to defend yourself from non-white,s regardless of situation. But given the circumstances, I think this young man has suffered enough.
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