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Persky followed the recommendation he was given, which hundreds of judges do every day. And to remove him over THIS case is particularly outrageous. Personally, I don't believe a crime was even committed.
I'll tag on to your post and talk a little about judicial elections and recall of judges.
The best systems provide for judicial accountability, but do not make judges subject to politics.
Eleven states have a system where judges are appointed and hold their appointment during "good behavior". Generally, there is a commission established in those states that reviews judicial performance and can investigate misconduct. Judges committing egregious misconduct can be removed from office by the commission. Judges who commit lesser infractions can be reprimanded and/or required to get counseling or receive instruction in the law. This is probably the best system for insuring a truly independent and fair-minded judiciary.
Another eight states follow the rule that my state, Utah, follows. Judges are appointed by the governor after obtaining approval from a special commission. They than must sit every eight years for a retention election. No candidate is permitted to oppose a sitting judge. The ballot is a "yes" or "no" ballot. If the judge obtains 50% plus one vote in his favor, he remains in office. Anything less than fifty percent means he must vacate the office at the end of the year. This is a decent system and it works well in Utah. The only judges ever forced out of office were removed because of a long-standing pattern of mistreating litigants and counsel who appeared before them.
California is one of twenty states that has non-partisan judicial elections. This means candidates may run against a sitting judge. A sitting judge must always be prepared to be opposed for reelection. This is not a good system if one wants independent judges.
Only five states have judicial recall elections. California happens to be one of those states. What is even worse about the California law is that no grounds have to be stated for recall in such an election. It could literally be because people don't like the way the judge dresses, his accent, or his race. The recall election makes the California system for selecting and retaining judges a very poor system in terms of promoting judicial independence.
My position is a little different than some here. I accept the notion that Brock Turner was convicted of a sex offense and had punishment coming for doing so. I do not accept the idea that a judge should be micromanaged to the point where he is afraid to do his job. What happened to Judge Persky will have many far reaching effects. A little known fact about this case is that a complaint was made about Judge Persky and his sentence to the California Judicial Conduct Commission. The Commission reviewed the matter and found no fault with Persky's actions. He had merely imposed the sentence recommended in the case by California Probation.
Perhaps, the most pernicious effect this will have though is that it will discourage many of the best lawyers from wanting to be judges. When they think about what happened to Judge Persky, they will decide it is better to remain in the private practice of law where they will make more money anyway.
I'm not the poster you responded to, but I also don't think a crime was committed.
I think he was very drunk, and was trying to pleasure her (his pants were still on, as we all know), and I believe he didn't notice she passed out.
Crime requires intent.
I personally don't believe he noticed she was passed out drunk.
And I believe when this coupling began, she was conscious and as able to give consent to sexual activity as he was.
And for those who say SHE WASN'T ABLE TO GIVE CONSENT, well, then, he wasn't either. And we don't know who started this fondling, kissing, leading up to groping incident. There are no reports that he dragged her unconscious from the party.
And he was 18 and she was 23, and she stated she "couldn't hold her liquor like she used to" although her BAC was .23. No one can "hold" that, regardless of history. That's a LOT of drinking. The kind of drinking, even if an event of blacked out sex didn't occur, you'd wake up in the morning and say, oh god I really ought not ever do that again, ever.
THIS IS NOT the case of a man drugging a woman, and then having sex with her unconscious body on purpose. This is two drunk young people misbehaving and the older woman passing out while they were not actually having sex that would pleasure him.
This is a point where we will have to agree to disagree. If he was so drunk how did he have the capacity to run when confronted by the two guys who arrived on the scene. Sounds like he knew exactly what he was doing to a woman clearly passed out. How it started does not matter. How she was dressed does not matter. I will say this again, he was well on his way to a full on rape when the two heroes arrived on the scene to save the girl from further trauma. The fact that he has to register as a sex offender comes with the territory.
Persky followed the recommendation he was given, which hundreds of judges do every day. And to remove him over THIS case is particularly outrageous. Personally, I don't believe a crime was even committed.
Wow, just wow...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC
I'm not the poster you responded to, but I also don't think a crime was committed.
I think he was very drunk, and was trying to pleasure her (his pants were still on, as we all know), and I believe he didn't notice she passed out.
Crime requires intent.
I personally don't believe he noticed she was passed out drunk.
And I believe when this coupling began, she was conscious and as able to give consent to sexual activity as he was.
And for those who say SHE WASN'T ABLE TO GIVE CONSENT, well, then, he wasn't either. And we don't know who started this fondling, kissing, leading up to groping incident. There are no reports that he dragged her unconscious from the party.
And he was 18 and she was 23, and she stated she "couldn't hold her liquor like she used to" although her BAC was .23. No one can "hold" that, regardless of history. That's a LOT of drinking. The kind of drinking, even if an event of blacked out sex didn't occur, you'd wake up in the morning and say, oh god I really ought not ever do that again, ever.
THIS IS NOT the case of a man drugging a woman, and then having sex with her unconscious body on purpose. This is two drunk young people misbehaving and the older woman passing out while they were not actually having sex that would pleasure him.
Look, people hook up at parties after getting drunk all the time. Very few of those hookups happen in a dark alley. Even fewer of those hookups involve one party running away when caught. I'm not a lawyer. I'm an accountant, but I'm also a parent of small children. I know when my kids are doing something shady when they try to hide it and when they act guilty when caught. That dude knew what he was doing, and he knew it was wrong. I'm sorry if you believe otherwise and are content to ignore human nature to justify your belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigmatico
I'm not defending anyone. Both Brock and "Emily Doe" made a number of poor choices that night. They were both very drunk and incapable of making sound decisions. But ultimately, these were two drunk kids hooking up at a frat party; that's what happened. In fact, "Emily Doe" was drunk when she arrived at the party, in her skintight dress. I'm sure you didn't know any of that either, because the MSM didn't find it necessary to mention it. Read the police reports. You can rep me once you avail yourself of the facts.
As the father of a young girl, I intend to have multiple, super embarrassing, conversations with her about how the world isn't fair and she can't let herself get carried away at parties because she's a girl. People will judge her based on the clothes she wears and a few guys will make all of us look bad by trying to pull crap like this. Emily Doe is the victim, and as much as I don't want to blame the victim, we really do need to have a conversation about how stuff like this happens all too often when people drink too much, and how much of the burden of responsibility falls on women to not drink so much that they find themselves in this situation (blacked out and in a dark alley).
This is a point where we will have to agree to disagree. If he was so drunk how did he have the capacity to run when confronted by the two guys who arrived on the scene. Sounds like he knew exactly what he was doing to a woman clearly passed out. How it started does not matter. How she was dressed does not matter. I will say this again, he was well on his way to a full on rape when the two heroes arrived on the scene to save the girl from further trauma. The fact that he has to register as a sex offender comes with the territory.
How it started doesn't matter? So "Emily's" behavior doesn't matter, I suppose? Only Brock is accountable for his actions? And maybe you think how she was dressed doesn't matter either, but obviously "Emily" thought it mattered. She made it a point to mention her "beige cardigan" multiple times in her "victim" impact statement. If you're looking for a hero to champion the cause of sexual assault victims, you've made a very poor choice. So much of what that woman said in her VIS was blatantly misleading and dishonest.
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I'm a little curious that people see this so differently.
She's 23, he's 18.
It's not like he stole her car. Or posted video of her in compromising positions on the internet. Or knifed her in the belly.
They both engaged in sexual activity, and somewhere along that time frame she passed out. By her own doing. As was her typical pattern, MANY TIMES.
Read the police report. She's got some real experience with black out drinking.
This young man who has less experience with black out drinking and making out didn't notice she was unconscious, *shrugs shoulders* had a really promising future. I'm not sure what her future was, she was living with her parents at the age of 23. And decided to go attend a freshman party with her sister, already drunk, and her mother dropped them off that way. Hmmm.
He spent his time at the party going around kissing women on the cheek or the lips, and they giggled and rebuffed him. (That's also in the police report, giggling and turning away).
Then he found one who didn't rebuff him, and they went toward his dorm and at that time were engaging in sexual behavior on the ground.
Girl, if you don't intend to consent to sex and then pass out moments later, maybe it might be a good idea not to get yourself .23 drunk and consent to sex. Ya think?
Had Brock Turner not encountered this woman at that party, he'd be graduating from college and on his way to a successful life. And it's unlikely she would be on the road to success, IMHO.
I'm a little curious that people see this so differently.
She's 23, he's 18.
It's not like he stole her car. Or posted video of her in compromising positions on the internet.
They both engaged in sexual activity, and somewhere along that time frame she passed out. By her own doing. As was her typical pattern, MANY TIMES.
Read the police report. She's got some real experience with black out drinking.
This young man who has less experience with black out drinking and making out didn't notice she was unconscious, *shrugs shoulders* had a really promising future. I'm not sure what her future was, she was living with her parents at the age of 23.
Girl, if you don't intend to consent to sex and then pass out moments later, maybe it might be a good idea not to get yourself .23 drunk and consent to sex. Ya think?
I read the complaint, and other documentation the woman woke up in a hospital said she had no idea who Brock Turner was, and didn't know he had sex with her. Not sure where your reading but that seems like rape to me. You find a passed out woman you call 911 you don't rape her.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490
I read the complaint, and other documentation the woman woke up in a hospital said she had no idea who Brock Turner was, and didn't know he had sex with her. Not sure where your reading but that seems like rape to me. You find a passed out woman you call 911 you don't rape her.
I was reading the entire police report, which takes about an hour and a half to read.
He didn't know who she was either, if that's important. Neither knew each other. They were very drunk, at a party.
It's not a point in her favor that she got herself so drunk that she couldn't remember who she wandered off to make out with. That's a point AGAINST her.
Both were sloppy drunks at a party, making out. She was drunker, and older, and she passed out while they were groping.
I was reading the entire police report, which takes about an hour and a half to read.
He didn't know who she was either, if that's important. Neither knew each other. They were very drunk, at a party.
It's not a point in her favor that she got herself so drunk that she couldn't remember who she wandered off to make out with. That's a point AGAINST her.
Both were sloppy drunks at a party, making out. She was drunker, and older, and she passed out while they were groping.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490
Your referring to this police report
[scribd]315432156[/scribd]https://www.scribd.com/doc/315432156/Brock-Turner-police-report[/url]
All of your information your referring to came from Brock Turner is that correct? His statement?
Ummm. No.
It came from the witnesses.
And the "victim". And the other partygoers.
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