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Old 02-16-2019, 09:01 PM
 
18,729 posts, read 15,623,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrician4you View Post
Morally

Isn’t it morally wrong for the robber to rob a store? Sorry but the robber caused this chain of events with his actions. I have no moral reservations with a decision of charging this person with murder
To me this is like a scenario where a drunk driver hits you on your bike, then while in the ambulance with s broken leg, the driver is over-zealous and takes a curve at a very high rate of speed, loses control and turns over and you die in the crash. If the drunk driver didn’t hit you you’d still be alive, but it was the ambulance drivers carelessness and lack of competence that resulted in your death. I can see charging the robber with some responsibility but I am not on board with overlooking police negligence, incompetence or carelessness due to overzealous actions. That cop will be on other shooting scenes, and the other cops have a right to feel safe too.

Part of police training is learning to shoot the bad guy and not the good guy or the victim. When a bunch of people are just letting loose with rapid fire weapons tragedies are going to occur. Some responsibility has to fall in the departments practices and training. It could be a bank lobby full of hostages next time who are the victims. People need to feel the cops are going to help them not take them down in a hail of bullets worthy of the ending of Bonnie and Clyde.

Last edited by ocnjgirl; 02-16-2019 at 09:49 PM..
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:02 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
8,079 posts, read 5,879,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I am very hesitant to charge a crime unless the police officer wanted someone dead for malicious purposes. As for the robber with the fake gun, "absitively." His attempt at a crime caused the death. In law we call it a crime of transferred intent, where the intent to commit a robbery transfers over to the death, even though the robber intended to steal, not kill.
And we both know that is baloney, regardless of what you call it "in law". Intent - true intent, not some bogus trumped-up notion like "transferred intent" - is no less important in the assessment of anyone involved in the incident.
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Old 02-16-2019, 10:34 PM
 
1,211 posts, read 624,905 times
Reputation: 3274
Quote:
Originally Posted by RageX View Post
If the actions affecting the arrest of a perpetrator of a violent felony in progress cause bystanders, officers or, other perpetrators to become maimed, cripped or, killed, that aforementioned perpetrator shall be charged with the felony assault and / or negligent homicide of the injured / murdered parties.

Pretty ironclad.

...unfortunately, in this case it does expose some of NYPD's sh---y shooting...

NYPD has quite a few vets that know how to zero a rifle and, teach real LRM and CQM but...um... a lot of them are also cops because they got 60 credits from John Jay College.

Age. Step.
17. Freshman at John Jay.
18. Take civil service exam.
21. Graduate John Jay.
22. City finally responds, gives applicants APD (processing) dates.
23. Get assigned a police academy date at College Point (the UnderHutch).
First time firing even a 9mm weapon in their entire lives.
29. Been a cop for 5 1/2 years already.
Second time firing even a 9mm weapon in their entire lives.

...this can cause problems...
We're are you getting this from other than out of thin air??

NYPD have to train/qualify and attend/pass firearms shooting certifications TWICE per year as per state law. So...where are you getting your 5 1/2 years between firing weapons thing??
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Elysium
6,140 posts, read 3,331,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I wonder how much is due to the nature of the weapon in use. A pistol isn't a precision instrument except in the hands of a very few skilled marksmen. Making it an automatic would tend to support the "spray and pray" methodology where as the old revolver took longer to fire each shot and a lot longer to reload so they couldn't just waste rounds down range. Four cops, 42 shots. Someone or more than one someone, not only emptied his weapon but reloaded and continued firing. Did they even have a target?

I was raised to respect the police and still do. Yet more and more I wonder if Tackleberry (Police Academy) might actually be typical.
That is exactly what happened when American police were mostly armed with 6 or 5 shot revolvers with a relatively long reloading time the teaching was to reassess the situation after firing two rounds, lest you were empty in seconds with your opponent still shooting at you.

With the adoption of pistols with the loaded magazine carrying almost as many rounds as previous police carried in reloads and then he has two extra magazines on top of that with a relatively rapid reload for the twice a year shoot to qualify officer the teaching switch from 2 rounds and look to keep firing until the threat is gone. So under stress when a pre 1980's cop emptied 6 rounds today he fires off 15 before he is forced to slow down and reload a fresh magazine
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:48 PM
 
1,071 posts, read 715,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyram View Post
We're are you getting this from other than out of thin air??

NYPD have to train/qualify and attend/pass firearms shooting certifications TWICE per year as per state law. So...where are you getting your 5 1/2 years between firing weapons thing??
Well, ok, I was wrong on the weapon training times. Thanks for the info. Now I know and, knowing is half --Oh look, a chipmunk-- (sorry). I am better equipped for the next debate on this matter.

That still isn't enough given the high population density areas they have to work in. It's why I favor vets. Many of them had to go to the range every 9 to 12 weeks as par for the course.

Also, perhaps the individual nature of the poor-shot officer comes into play. I have a few college students who are rock-solid, good to cover my 6. I also met some E6s that got out and became cops. One of them was such a ...turd... I really wanna slap his recruiter. No policy can 100% account for these personal differences.
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Old Yesterday, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Washington State
107 posts, read 75,687 times
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There are a few interesting debates here.

As I stand I am a believer in literal action and reaction, regardless of law. I do not like to make my decisions based on emotions or anecdotes; "The robber is EVIL, so he deserves what he gets."

The police and the law rely heavily on people's emotions to work.Even though it is the law, transferred intent, or whatever other name is used to soften the action, the action is still what it is. The police officer shot the detective, not the robber.

We as a society try to describe police as a force of nature, YOUR actions CAUSED the police to respond the way they did. They are simply a reaction to you the citizen the criminal until; they do something incredibly vulgar. Than all of sudden the police are just humans too! They are fathers and mothers with PTSD who have to deal with stressful situations!

As an above poster stated, the laws are heavily in bias of the police. The system of innocent until proven guilty seems to be more of slogan than an actual application. If that statement is true, than even in that situation, the robber is still an innocent citizen until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

In reality, a good lawyer will get the murder charges reduced. Murder has to have intent as well. If the robber was packing a fake gun than a good attorney can argue that from the beginning there was no intent to kill at all. There was intent to scare, intimidate, and maybe even suicide by cop. But, I am willing to hedge a bet that even the robber thought that the police had to be competent enough to not shoot each other up in their moment of blind panic.

I guess though, that would be giving police too much credit.
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Old Yesterday, 01:30 AM
 
5,704 posts, read 2,587,112 times
Reputation: 5503
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I wonder how much is due to the nature of the weapon in use. A pistol isn't a precision instrument except in the hands of a very few skilled marksmen. Making it an automatic would tend to support the "spray and pray" methodology where as the old revolver took longer to fire each shot and a lot longer to reload so they couldn't just waste rounds down range. Four cops, 42 shots. Someone or more than one someone, not only emptied his weapon but reloaded and continued firing. Did they even have a target?

I was raised to respect the police and still do. Yet more and more I wonder if Tackleberry (Police Academy) might actually be typical.
An automatic has a “speed limit” whereas a revolver doesn’t. An automatic is limited in its rate of fire by the mechanics of the firearm. Quite simply, there is a rate above which a semi auto CAN’T be fired. There is no such limitation for a revolver. Conclusion? A revolver can be fired FASTER than a semi-automatic
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Old Yesterday, 07:29 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
8,079 posts, read 5,879,066 times
Reputation: 7943
Quote:
Originally Posted by sylentvoyce View Post
There are a few interesting debates here.

As I stand I am a believer in literal action and reaction, regardless of law. I do not like to make my decisions based on emotions or anecdotes; "The robber is EVIL, so he deserves what he gets."

The police and the law rely heavily on people's emotions to work.Even though it is the law, transferred intent, or whatever other name is used to soften the action, the action is still what it is. The police officer shot the detective, not the robber.

We as a society try to describe police as a force of nature, YOUR actions CAUSED the police to respond the way they did. They are simply a reaction to you the citizen the criminal until; they do something incredibly vulgar. Than all of sudden the police are just humans too! They are fathers and mothers with PTSD who have to deal with stressful situations!

As an above poster stated, the laws are heavily in bias of the police. The system of innocent until proven guilty seems to be more of slogan than an actual application. If that statement is true, than even in that situation, the robber is still an innocent citizen until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

In reality, a good lawyer will get the murder charges reduced. Murder has to have intent as well. If the robber was packing a fake gun than a good attorney can argue that from the beginning there was no intent to kill at all. There was intent to scare, intimidate, and maybe even suicide by cop. But, I am willing to hedge a bet that even the robber thought that the police had to be competent enough to not shoot each other up in their moment of blind panic.

I guess though, that would be giving police too much credit.
Good post and I fully agree with your position. And, to be clear, I strongly support the police. I don't, however, support lawyers who mar the justice system with fabricated concept that could never pass the most fundamental right/wrong test.
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Old Yesterday, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Elysium
6,140 posts, read 3,331,734 times
Reputation: 4237
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
An automatic has a “speed limit” whereas a revolver doesn’t. An automatic is limited in its rate of fire by the mechanics of the firearm. Quite simply, there is a rate above which a semi auto CAN’T be fired. There is no such limitation for a revolver. Conclusion? A revolver can be fired FASTER than a semi-automatic
But then again we are not talking about the combat shooting sports enthusiast, but rather the officer who shoots twice a year because state law requires it for him to remain in his profession.

While he might be able to squeeze 6 rounds out of his double action revolver faster than his partner can fire 6 rounds from his pistol after the cylinder is empty the pistol armed officer is still putting out rounds as the revolver armed officer dumps the empty shells out of his cylinder and if he has speed loaders tries to line up the bullets to reload. This is compared to the pistol armed officer who pushes a button to dump an empty magazine, after firing three times as many bullets and brings a loaded magazine to his other hand in his more rapid reload cycle.
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Old Yesterday, 09:14 AM
 
12,514 posts, read 9,550,306 times
Reputation: 9054
Even with no felony murder rule, a simple second-degree robbery conviction can carry a sentence of up to 15 years in prison in New York State. This is comparable to what many get for manslaughter or even aggravated manslaughter.

https://casetext.com/statute/consoli...-second-degree

Article 70 - NYS Penal Law - Sentences of Imprisonment

Thus, the prosecution might be able to offer a plea deal to a 15-year sentence for 'simple' robbery in the second degree, without offending the people who view the crime as a manslaughter.
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