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Old Yesterday, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Washington State
104 posts, read 74,770 times
Reputation: 264

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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...uspect-n971396

Ok. Here is the summary of the above article link. Two NYC Detectives respond to a robbery in progress. Other Officers eventually join them. The robber is in a store robbing it. He decides to advance to the front of the store holding a fake gun. Definitely looked real. Police fired 42 shots, and accidentally kill one of the Detectives themselves. They also wound the robber, whom they quickly apprehend.

Here is the discussion I'm interested in starting up. I am pro police. But I also like to try to be critical of certain police actions, within some particular personal belief confines. Having said that...

I support the shooting itself, the gun looked real, the robber was aggressively advancing, the decision was one of those split second decisions that needed to be made. However, they are charging the robber with murder as well as the robbery because of the Detective's death.

I am going to boldly state that I think that is wrong. Is the death tragic, yes. Did the robbers actions lead to this shooting occurring, yes. But I still feel that tacking on charges because of your own poor shooting skills is a little petty.

Any thoughts, debates, arguments, and insults are all welcome.
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Old Yesterday, 02:46 AM
 
1,067 posts, read 712,096 times
Reputation: 1629
If the actions affecting the arrest of a perpetrator of a violent felony in progress cause bystanders, officers or, other perpetrators to become maimed, cripped or, killed, that aforementioned perpetrator shall be charged with the felony assault and / or negligent homicide of the injured / murdered parties.

Pretty ironclad.

...unfortunately, in this case it does expose some of NYPD's sh---y shooting...

NYPD has quite a few vets that know how to zero a rifle and, teach real LRM and CQM but...um... a lot of them are also cops because they got 60 credits from John Jay College.

Age. Step.
17. Freshman at John Jay.
18. Take civil service exam.
21. Graduate John Jay.
22. City finally responds, gives applicants APD (processing) dates.
23. Get assigned a police academy date at College Point (the UnderHutch).
First time firing even a 9mm weapon in their entire lives.
29. Been a cop for 5 1/2 years already.
Second time firing even a 9mm weapon in their entire lives.

...this can cause problems...
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Old Yesterday, 05:37 AM
 
Location: Washington State
104 posts, read 74,770 times
Reputation: 264
RageX, your first paragraph is solid. I definitely will not dispute the legal standing on which these types of charges can manifest themselves. The argument is very simple, even in laymans terms: that Detective would not be dead had the robber not acted a damn fool.

But, one has to wonder about the practical application here. The rest of your post is also in tune with what I was thinking as well. That police (especially in NYC), have a shoot first and shoot fast culture that could definitely benefit from a little reining in.

Now, many might argue that police have to make split second decisions, and I don't know what they deal with, etc... but, in spite of which trash heap the Courts are going to dump truck all the blame too, the fact remains that some Police Officer in that group is a clown who was probably shooting with his eyes closed.
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Old Yesterday, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Meredith NH
1,531 posts, read 2,212,784 times
Reputation: 2638
Golden rules of gunplay....be sure of your target and what's behind it
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Old Yesterday, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
14,007 posts, read 11,121,059 times
Reputation: 10334
That was not the only case of friendly fire in NYC: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/n...-lawsuits.html. Back in 2012 there were nine pedestrians hit when two policemen shot 16 rounds at a solitary gunman fleeing a murder.
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Old Yesterday, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Midwest
4,002 posts, read 6,922,176 times
Reputation: 6579
Quote:
Originally Posted by RageX View Post
If the actions affecting the arrest of a perpetrator of a violent felony in progress cause bystanders, officers or, other perpetrators to become maimed, cripped or, killed, that aforementioned perpetrator shall be charged with the felony assault and / or negligent homicide of the injured / murdered parties.

Pretty ironclad.

...unfortunately, in this case it does expose some of NYPD's sh---y shooting...

NYPD has quite a few vets that know how to zero a rifle and, teach real LRM and CQM but...um... a lot of them are also cops because they got 60 credits from John Jay College.

Age. Step.
17. Freshman at John Jay.
18. Take civil service exam.
21. Graduate John Jay.
22. City finally responds, gives applicants APD (processing) dates.
23. Get assigned a police academy date at College Point (the UnderHutch).
First time firing even a 9mm weapon in their entire lives.
29. Been a cop for 5 1/2 years already.
Second time firing even a 9mm weapon in their entire lives.

...this can cause problems...
I've read that the NYPD is pretty lightweight on marksmanship and combat shooting practice and training. There's only one excuse for that, the idiot at the top.

I've also read that playing violent (aka shoot-em-up) video games can provide better accuracy training than live fire.
https://www.livescience.com/19984-vi...-accuracy.html

Of course, there's no training that fully prepares you for the full tilt boogie live fire/real life action. Some people are very cool under fire, some get wiggy and shake like a leaf. No way to predict those.

This is a tragic event. The one who fired the kill shot needs a good look too. It's not unheard of for a "friendly fire" incident to be someone taking the opportunity to dispatch someone they don't like. See "Serpico" for details.

Someone wasn't paying attention to the combat placement of the cops. That's the senior or commanding officer's responsibility. Obviously you never never ever ever have a friendly in your line of fire.
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 PM
 
8,096 posts, read 3,222,511 times
Reputation: 21343
I"m not a fan of ramping up charges beyond what a person actually does.

This guy robbed and incited violence by appearing to point a gun at a cop.

He didn't kill anyone.
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Old Yesterday, 09:18 PM
 
18,718 posts, read 15,607,770 times
Reputation: 35172
Quote:
Originally Posted by sylentvoyce View Post
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...uspect-n971396

Ok. Here is the summary of the above article link. Two NYC Detectives respond to a robbery in progress. Other Officers eventually join them. The robber is in a store robbing it. He decides to advance to the front of the store holding a fake gun. Definitely looked real. Police fired 42 shots, and accidentally kill one of the Detectives themselves. They also wound the robber, whom they quickly apprehend.

Here is the discussion I'm interested in starting up. I am pro police. But I also like to try to be critical of certain police actions, within some particular personal belief confines. Having said that...

I support the shooting itself, the gun looked real, the robber was aggressively advancing, the decision was one of those split second decisions that needed to be made. However, they are charging the robber with murder as well as the robbery because of the Detective's death.

I am going to boldly state that I think that is wrong. Is the death tragic, yes. Did the robbers actions lead to this shooting occurring, yes. But I still feel that tacking on charges because of your own poor shooting skills is a little petty.

Any thoughts, debates, arguments, and insults are all welcome.
What I donít understand about modern policing, is that it used to be a shot or two to take down the perpetrator. Now itís 42 shots? Sometimes itís even more. If they didnít just shoot 42 shots helter-skelter all at the same time, the detective would still be alive. Itís not that they shot at the robber, itís that it seem uncontrolled to a great degree in many recent cases.
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Old Yesterday, 10:26 PM
 
8,500 posts, read 5,780,108 times
Reputation: 15814
Quote:
Originally Posted by RageX View Post
If the actions affecting the arrest of a perpetrator of a violent felony in progress cause bystanders, officers or, other perpetrators to become maimed, cripped or, killed, that aforementioned perpetrator shall be charged with the felony assault and / or negligent homicide of the injured / murdered parties.

Pretty ironclad.

...unfortunately, in this case it does expose some of NYPD's sh---y shooting...

NYPD has quite a few vets that know how to zero a rifle and, teach real LRM and CQM but...um... a lot of them are also cops because they got 60 credits from John Jay College.

Age. Step.
17. Freshman at John Jay.
18. Take civil service exam.
21. Graduate John Jay.
22. City finally responds, gives applicants APD (processing) dates.
23. Get assigned a police academy date at College Point (the UnderHutch).
First time firing even a 9mm weapon in their entire lives.
29. Been a cop for 5 1/2 years already.
Second time firing even a 9mm weapon in their entire lives.

...this can cause problems...
Plus, many cops only fire at the range when qualifying, and that's only a few rounds downrange!

Not great shooters!

MrsM shoots more than most cops
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Old Yesterday, 10:44 PM
 
12,099 posts, read 9,992,348 times
Reputation: 16669
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I"m not a fan of ramping up charges beyond what a person actually does.

This guy robbed and incited violence by appearing to point a gun at a cop.

He didn't kill anyone.
This is felony murder, a common law crime that many jurisdictions have coded, not really "ramping up charges" but I see your point.

Some courts have held that situations like this ARE unfair, to charge the defendant in the death, others have not.
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