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Old 03-16-2019, 11:10 AM
 
4,772 posts, read 3,046,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I get that, but I'm not getting how that translates into mail fraud. Other than the specific case of the fake charity that may have tax implications, where is the fraud? They didn't obtain something of value without paying for it. IE, whatever education they got from the college they still had to pay for. I understand the ethics (or lack thereof) but can't trace the crime here. The only thing I can think is if someone took a tax deduction for the fake charity. But there are supposedly hundreds of others who didn't use a fake charity so how do they reach mail fraud charges for them?

From the information I've read so far, this is somewhat the equivalent of slipping the hostess a twenty to move ahead of line in restaurant. The meal is still paid for, nothing is gotten for free.


Reading the indictment didn't really clear things up. As a non-lawyer, it reads to me like Singer and a couple of partners were the ones committing the acts and if it were fraud, then most of the parents should actually be considered victims of not participants. In fact it calls the charges racketeering, not fraud. It would be very interesting to sit in a jury on one of these and hear how it gets argued out, assuming these go to trial and don't get bargained down to a fine.
Like NorthofHere mentions, it comes down to bribery.

You typically say mail fraud or wire fraud, when a person was trying to cheat another person out of money or property. But sometimes, you’re not trying to cheat someone out of money. Here what you have is they weren’t necessarily cheating the university out of money, (the accused) were getting kickbacks for these kids to get admitted. What’s important here is it was a bribery kickback scheme.

I think honest services fraud is a type of mail fraud. The reason, I assume, the husbands of Huffman and Loughlin weren't charged, is because their name wasn't on the checks or wire transfers. So in a way they sort of "lucked out" even if they knew what their wives were doing.
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:40 AM
 
19,166 posts, read 15,827,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundaydrive00 View Post
But she wasn't actually being recruited to the rowing team. The couch was bribed to tell admissions that she was. Who nows how much of the process is known to the kids, but it's not like she had to actually go to some team tryouts or even practices. She was put on the recruitment list, not on the team.

I read the picture was taken in their house. I haven't actually seen the picture, so who knows the exact details.
None of the kids involved were being recruited by the athletic teams, they were all in via bribing coaches to get them in. The photos were not for the coaches, they were for admissions, to show them as athletes to back up their claim that they were not only playing whatever sport it was, but excelling at it. Some of the kid's faces were photoshopped onto athletes' bodies to make them appear to be playing the sport. Some like Olivia and her sister, were faked by them bringing the rowing machine outside and having the girls pose on it as rowers, then inserting the pic onto a fake water background.


Their admission applications had them as rowers and the pics included. How could they not know what their own application said?


None of the kids were put on any teams officially as players, but yes, they were added to the list that the team was made up of. They simply were taken off the rosters by the coach when they started school, or they quit the team when they got to school if they were aware of it.
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:52 AM
 
19,166 posts, read 15,827,477 times
Reputation: 36126
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I get that, but I'm not getting how that translates into mail fraud. Other than the specific case of the fake charity that may have tax implications, where is the fraud? They didn't obtain something of value without paying for it. IE, whatever education they got from the college they still had to pay for. I understand the ethics (or lack thereof) but can't trace the crime here. The only thing I can think is if someone took a tax deduction for the fake charity. But there are supposedly hundreds of others who didn't use a fake charity so how do they reach mail fraud charges for them?

From the information I've read so far, this is somewhat the equivalent of slipping the hostess a twenty to move ahead of line in restaurant. The meal is still paid for, nothing is gotten for free.


Reading the indictment didn't really clear things up. As a non-lawyer, it reads to me like Singer and a couple of partners were the ones committing the acts and if it were fraud, then most of the parents should actually be considered victims of not participants. In fact it calls the charges racketeering, not fraud. It would be very interesting to sit in a jury on one of these and hear how it gets argued out, assuming these go to trial and don't get bargained down to a fine.
The parents mailed the checks to a charity they knew was a fraud. That poster gave you links to mail fraud and honest services fraud that explains them (although in very legalese language):


"Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute, supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use any counterfeit or spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do, places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service, or deposits or causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier, or takes or receives therefrom, any such matter or thing, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail or such carrier according to the direction thereon, or at the place at which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any such matter or thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Now not only has her mother lost everything, she has as well.
They haven't lost "everything." Trust me, they still have plenty.
They AND their kids likely have enough they'd never have to work again.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:36 PM
 
Location: USA
3,366 posts, read 787,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
They haven't lost "everything." Trust me, they still have plenty.
They AND their kids likely have enough they'd never have to work again.
And you know this how?
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:00 PM
 
19,166 posts, read 15,827,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applej3 View Post
And you know this how?
Mossimo, the dads company, is a multi-billion dollar company. They aren’t going to hurt for money even if Lori and the kids never get hired for anything.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:21 PM
 
728 posts, read 389,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selhars View Post
They haven't lost "everything." Trust me, they still have plenty.
They AND their kids likely have enough they'd never have to work again.
Yes they will still have money, but they have lost a whole lot besides that which money will not be able to fix anytime soon. Lorie loved still working and often said how fortunate she felt to have been doing so much at her age. That is gone now. People can fall into depression and despair when they have too much time on their hands with no sense of purpose or accomplishment in life. Where is she going to go from here once the dust settles? It's going to be really tough.

Matt Lauer supposedly struggles with having gone from such a fast paced, exciting life to figuring out how to fill all of his time living in retirement out in the Hamptons. He supposedly plays a lot of golf and is more involved in his kids' activities, but said it is hard figuring out a new direction and purpose in life. He doesn't know how to fill up all of his free time. He's still active on the social circuit though because he never committed a crime like Loughlin and people still associate with him.

Loughlin's daughters probably have more of a shot of rebounding if they express true remorse because people may be sympathetic given their age and naïveté. They did what their parents told them to do. People mostly blame their parents so I can see them recovering from this someday and carving out a new life for themselves.

The parents will have a much harder time because there is just no good excuse or rationalization for what they did which was so blatantly corrupt, shameful, and wrong. People will remember this as a terrible blight on their character and it strikes a nerve with people on lots of levels. It's very nasty and selfish to lie, cheat, and bribe to get your kid ahead when others are doing it the honest way by studying and working hard in their pursuits. They have also heaped a ton of pain and humiliation onto their kids by doing what they did. Wrong and TERRIBLE parenting on so many levels.

Plus, Lorie constantly presented this 'good girl' image of herself in her interviews and the roles she played. She OFTEN talked about the importance of teaching her daughters to be good, moral people who do the right thing and said she chose roles to exemplify this. Wow, reminds me of Cosby often lecturing young men about having good character and morals yet look what he was doing behind the scenes. I'm not comparing what she did to what he did, as his actions were much worse, but still the hypocrisy in both cases is astounding. This does not bode well for her rebounding from this.

They may have money which certainly helps, but they have lost so much social and career status which I imagine is a VERY bitter pill to swallow. Their world has shrunk a lot as they are now persona non gratis in the elite social strata that they worked so hard for so many years to be apart of. I think of Camille Cosby hiding out in her home in PA for the last few years. It can't be a great life compared to how life used to be, and Loughlin's life may look the same, at least for a good long while.

Last edited by Chloe333; 03-16-2019 at 02:34 PM..
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe333 View Post
Yes they will still have money, but they have lost a whole lot besides that which money will not be able to fix anytime soon. Lorie loved still working and often said how fortunate she felt to have been doing so much at her age. That is gone now. People can fall into depression and despair when they have too much time on their hands with no sense of purpose or accomplishment in life. Where is she going to go from here once the dust settles? It's going to be really tough.
There was an interesting article on this very topic on CNN:

Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman may initially have a rough road in Hollywood after cheating scheme

They bring up some valid points which you already touched on. I definitely wouldn't say there's no possibility for forgiveness and redemption for the two, only time will tell.

From the article:

The good news for Loughlin and Huffman, however, is that "the public has a short memory when it comes to their favorite celebrities," Tellem says. Particularly those with whom audiences have fond, warm memories.

"Actors and other celebrities are often able to overcome damage to their reputation better than everyday folks because people feel an affinity toward them and the characters they play," says Evan Nierman, CEO of crisis PR firm Red Banyan. He points to Martha Stewart's comeback after being convicted of obstruction of justice, making false statements and conspiracy for lying to investigators as an example.

"The path to redemption is much more accessible to people who commit white-collar crimes or are arrested for drug offenses than for those who commit violent crimes," Nierman says. Lou Shapiro, a Los Angeles-based criminal defense attorney, thinks so long as Huffman and Loughlin "demonstrate sincere remorse for their actions and pay their debt to society, they can resurrect themselves."
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:51 PM
 
6,600 posts, read 6,943,137 times
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I'll say it again.....these people lives are not "destroyed."

If Mel Gibson was able to network after his drunken race-tinged tirades, and the parents of children killed in Newtown can find it in themselves to carry on, and the girls kidnapped and freed from the rapes and conditions while with Boko Haram can succeed, and the Kardashians can build an empire boosted by sex tapes, and Monica Lewinsky -- who got on her knees with a president -- can survive (now THAT was a scandal)......then Lori, Felicity, their husbands and children can certainly survive. I'm not saying there won't be shaming and shunning. But nobody DIED!

What is it about today's snowflake society?.....people act like scandal is the end of the world. Yes, their lives have been rocked. But we do have it within us, as human beings, to actually come out on the other side of scandal and actually be a better person.
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Old 03-16-2019, 02:51 PM
 
19,166 posts, read 15,827,477 times
Reputation: 36126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe333 View Post
Yes they will still have money, but they have lost a whole lot besides that which money will not be able to fix anytime soon. Lorie loved still working and often said how fortunate she felt to have been doing so much at her age. That is gone now. People can fall into depression and despair when they have too much time on their hands with no sense of purpose or accomplishment in life. Where is she going to go from here once the dust settles? It's going to be really tough.

Matt Lauer supposedly struggles with having gone from such a fast paced, exciting life to figuring out how to fill all of his time living in retirement out in the Hamptons. He supposedly plays a lot of golf and is more involved in his kids' activities, but said it is hard figuring out a new direction and purpose in life. He doesn't know how to fill up all of his free time. He's still active on the social circuit though because he never committed a crime like Loughlin and people still associate with him.

Loughlin's daughters probably have more of a shot of rebounding if they express true remorse because people may be sympathetic given their age and naïveté. They did what their parents told them to do. People mostly blame their parents so I can see them recovering from this someday and carving out a new life for themselves.

The parents will have a much harder time because there is just no good excuse or rationalization for what they did which was so blatantly corrupt, shameful, and wrong. People will remember this as a terrible blight on their character and it strikes a nerve with people on lots of levels. It's very nasty and selfish to lie, cheat, and bribe to get your kid ahead when others are doing it the honest way by studying and working hard in their pursuits. They have also heaped a ton of pain and humiliation onto their kids by doing what they did. Wrong and TERRIBLE parenting on so many levels.

Plus, Lorie constantly presented this 'good girl' image of herself in her interviews and the roles she played. She OFTEN talked about the importance of teaching her daughters to be good, moral people who do the right thing and said she chose roles to exemplify this. Wow, reminds me of Cosby often lecturing young men about having good character and morals yet look what he was doing behind the scenes. I'm not comparing what she did to what he did, as his actions were much worse, but still the hypocrisy in both cases is astounding. This does not bode well for her rebounding from this.

They may have money which certainly helps, but they have lost so much social and career status which I imagine is a VERY bitter pill to swallow. Their world has shrunk a lot as they are now persona non gratis in the elite social strata that they worked so hard for so many years to be apart of. I think of Camille Cosby hiding out in her home in PA for the last few years. It can't be a great life compared to how life used to be, and Loughlin's life may look the same, at least for a good long while.

I'm not saying they haven't lost a lot, but that poster made it sound like they were going to be starving in the streets due to this. I don't think the kids will have any problems rebounding, they are very young and we live in a very fast news cycle world now. In a couple of years it will be very old news.


I do think it's a lot different for Matt Lauer, in that he was at Today for many years, and much more than just a job acting in a show, more of a lifestyle, traveling the world, etc. His off time was probably devoted to the Today show too, reading books for an interview with an author, etc. He basically gave his life to the show and it was all yanked away.
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