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Old 04-06-2019, 07:10 AM
 
6,277 posts, read 3,538,807 times
Reputation: 7172

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
From your first link:

"In New York, families can claim a religious exemption from vaccination requirements. Now, a Rockland state senator is sponsoring a bill to eliminate that exemption, as California did in 2015.

“'It’s very simple: Just remove all non-medical exemptions. Make it clear and simple to school administrators, make it clear and simple to parents. Cut through the nonsense that’s out there and let’s govern by the science,' State Sen. Carlucci said. 'Or else, we’re going to have a real, real problem on our hands, and it’s not just going to be isolated to Rockland County or to Brooklyn – everyone’s going to be facing this.'”

Anti-vaxers in Rockland County might want to be prepared for unintended consequences of challenging the ban.
I remember you saying after CA. eliminated all exceptions in 2015 except medical, that now all the other states would follow suit. Have they???? I know recently NJ tried to eliminate religious exemption but that failed. However, the state did make it more difficult.

Then you still have 17 states which not only have religious exemptions, but also philosophical exemptions as well. If they cannot eliminate the latter, they will eliminate the former? I now live in PA which has both exemptions. Again, the philosophical exemption failed to be eliminated. Of course, anyone over the 18 can refuse any vaccination with a simple NO. Ah, yes, your increased health insurance premium "consequences" for not vaccinating. I have Medicare. Think you can increase my Medicare Premiums and lower my Social Security check for not vaccinating?

You do know what deep feelings come to mind in these Orthodox Jewish Communities when they are told they cannot go around in public unless vaccinated? You may as well say they need to wear armbands stating they are unvaccinated for the public to see.

Thankfully, the rest of the country doesn't have that Dr. Pan on their legislatures.

 
Old 04-06-2019, 08:06 AM
 
Location: North West Arkansas (zone 6b)
2,660 posts, read 1,982,555 times
Reputation: 3625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
A poster said "I suspect that the larger issue with Rockland county is the significant portion of the population which is hasidic jew. Those waldorf kids just got caught up with the larger (targeted) group so as not to appear biased against one particular part of the population"

That comment stands, and it is awful.
how is it awful?

as a policy maker, you understand that one group of people tend to congregate in large groups in prayer or in play. The hasidem are an insular culture choosing religious instruction over actual education. Policy makers are also keenly aware that the slightest mis-statement will have hundreds of fingers pointed to you about anti-semitism or preferential treatment.

The waldorf kids never mix with the hasidem population except perhap in passing on the street, but since people don't really walk anywhere in Rockland that's a smaller likelihood of communication. I lived next door to hasidem (who keep to themselves) and passed by the waldorf school daily on my way to work. Clearly, the higher risk group would be the hasidem children who are packed into their schools but as an administrator/policy maker, there is no way I would make an exception for the waldorf kids... so they got caught up with the larger ban. (total waldorf school population is just a few hundred, we could not afford to put our kids in that school)

Note in the ban that un-vaccinated children are not allowed to be in public places, there is no way to prove that a child is un-vaccinated without showing papers and since waldorf kids look like public school kids (actually, as a former resident, I could probably pick them out) it's unenforceable, except the hasidem children are quite easy to pickout by the way they dress and of course, their parents.
 
Old 04-06-2019, 08:41 AM
 
9,565 posts, read 5,756,146 times
Reputation: 9631
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunslinger256 View Post
how is it awful?

as a policy maker, you understand that one group of people tend to congregate in large groups in prayer or in play. The hasidem are an insular culture choosing religious instruction over actual education. Policy makers are also keenly aware that the slightest mis-statement will have hundreds of fingers pointed to you about anti-semitism or preferential treatment.

The waldorf kids never mix with the hasidem population except perhap in passing on the street, but since people don't really walk anywhere in Rockland that's a smaller likelihood of communication. I lived next door to hasidem (who keep to themselves) and passed by the waldorf school daily on my way to work. Clearly, the higher risk group would be the hasidem children who are packed into their schools but as an administrator/policy maker, there is no way I would make an exception for the waldorf kids... so they got caught up with the larger ban. (total waldorf school population is just a few hundred, we could not afford to put our kids in that school)

Note in the ban that un-vaccinated children are not allowed to be in public places, there is no way to prove that a child is un-vaccinated without showing papers and since waldorf kids look like public school kids (actually, as a former resident, I could probably pick them out) it's unenforceable, except the hasidem children are quite easy to pickout by the way they dress and of course, their parents.
This is a quote from Ed day’s FB page before the ban was lifted and it pretty much confirms what you’re saying.

My gratitude to Dorit Reiss, the James Edgar Hervey Professor of Law at the University of California, Hastings College of the Law, for her professional clarity on both the legality and the necessity of our addressing the measles outbreak, the longest running outbreak in the Nation, with bold and decisive action.
She covered it all ... the compliance with the principles of public health law; our starting with a first step of education efforts and offering vaccines, along with several different less coercive measures; the decided lack of any hint of discrimination as it applies to all unvaccinated minors, regardless of religion or ethnicity, pointing out that while much of the affected community are Jewish Orthodox, not all of it is -- for example, the school whose students sued after being banned is a Waldorf school, not a Jewish Yeshiva. ”


They did include all unvaccinated minors as to not appear to be discriminating against the Jewish community. But looks like Dorit Reiss and James Edgar Hervey’s advice was dead wrong in their understanding of the law. And they majorly overstepped their bounds.
 
Old 04-06-2019, 11:34 AM
 
6,277 posts, read 3,538,807 times
Reputation: 7172
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunslinger256 View Post
how is it awful?

as a policy maker, you understand that one group of people tend to congregate in large groups in prayer or in play. The hasidem are an insular culture choosing religious instruction over actual education. Policy makers are also keenly aware that the slightest mis-statement will have hundreds of fingers pointed to you about anti-semitism or preferential treatment.

The waldorf kids never mix with the hasidem population except perhap in passing on the street, but since people don't really walk anywhere in Rockland that's a smaller likelihood of communication. I lived next door to hasidem (who keep to themselves) and passed by the waldorf school daily on my way to work. Clearly, the higher risk group would be the hasidem children who are packed into their schools but as an administrator/policy maker, there is no way I would make an exception for the waldorf kids... so they got caught up with the larger ban. (total waldorf school population is just a few hundred, we could not afford to put our kids in that school)

Note in the ban that un-vaccinated children are not allowed to be in public places, there is no way to prove that a child is un-vaccinated without showing papers and since waldorf kids look like public school kids (actually, as a former resident, I could probably pick them out) it's unenforceable, except the hasidem children are quite easy to pickout by the way they dress and of course, their parents.
https://www.fatherly.com/news/map-ci...ination-rates/

Nassau/Suffolk County surprised me, but maybe it should not have since I raised my kids there and they are raising their own families there. Long Island does not add fluoride to their water supply. People are very health aware there. Private schools? Don't know much about the Waldorf schools, but many of my daughters Town Travel Sports teams, and our neighbors, went to Friends (Quaker) Academy which back then the tuition was in the range of about $30,000 a year. One of my daughter's lives in Nassau. I suppose she should be terrified of letting her vaccinated sons be around so many unvaccinated children????

NYC 2nd of list? Again, imagine all the high priced schools there. Daughter applied once to a Private Pre-School as a Teacher in Manhattan where the tuition was $25,000/year.

So where are the Measles outbreaks in these places, especially in NYC with a large number of foreign tourists, and international business travelers? Rockland County is tiny in comparison to both these NY Counties.

If NJ could not eliminate their Religious Exemption, I highly doubt NYS would be able to.
 
Old 04-06-2019, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,865 posts, read 102,224,882 times
Reputation: 32940
None of the major world religions oppose vaccines. Most offer vaccines in their missions work. There are sub-groups in all religions that I'm familiar with that do oppose vaccines. In developed countries, opposition to vaccines usually doesn't cause a problem because of herd immunity. However, we are seeing as herd immunity drops, that outbreaks can happen. A non-denominational Christian church in Texas was opposed to vaccines until a measles outbreak happened there.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...tate-vaccines/
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...arent-any.html
https://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/21774...asles-outbreak
 
Old 04-06-2019, 12:18 PM
 
9,565 posts, read 5,756,146 times
Reputation: 9631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
None of the major world religions oppose vaccines. Most offer vaccines in their missions work. There are sub-groups in all religions that I'm familiar with that do oppose vaccines. In developed countries, opposition to vaccines usually doesn't cause a problem because of herd immunity. However, we are seeing as herd immunity drops, that outbreaks can happen. A non-denominational Christian church in Texas was opposed to vaccines until a measles outbreak happened there.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...tate-vaccines/
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...arent-any.html
https://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/21774...asles-outbreak
Religion can be very personal. You have no right to tell someone that their religious beliefs are invalid.
 
Old 04-06-2019, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,234 posts, read 28,037,227 times
Reputation: 28671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
I remember you saying after CA. eliminated all exceptions in 2015 except medical, that now all the other states would follow suit. Have they???? I know recently NJ tried to eliminate religious exemption but that failed. However, the state did make it more difficult.

Then you still have 17 states which not only have religious exemptions, but also philosophical exemptions as well. If they cannot eliminate the latter, they will eliminate the former? I now live in PA which has both exemptions. Again, the philosophical exemption failed to be eliminated. Of course, anyone over the 18 can refuse any vaccination with a simple NO. Ah, yes, your increased health insurance premium "consequences" for not vaccinating. I have Medicare. Think you can increase my Medicare Premiums and lower my Social Security check for not vaccinating?

You do know what deep feelings come to mind in these Orthodox Jewish Communities when they are told they cannot go around in public unless vaccinated? You may as well say they need to wear armbands stating they are unvaccinated for the public to see.

Thankfully, the rest of the country doesn't have that Dr. Pan on their legislatures.
Actually, what I said was that states that experience large outbreaks that are expensive to control may remove all non-medical exemptions. I never said "all" the other states would do so. There are some who are considering doing so now.

I wonder how much Rockland has spent so far on its outbreak?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
This is a quote from Ed day’s FB page before the ban was lifted and it pretty much confirms what you’re saying.

My gratitude to Dorit Reiss, the James Edgar Hervey Professor of Law at the University of California, Hastings College of the Law, for her professional clarity on both the legality and the necessity of our addressing the measles outbreak, the longest running outbreak in the Nation, with bold and decisive action.
She covered it all ... the compliance with the principles of public health law; our starting with a first step of education efforts and offering vaccines, along with several different less coercive measures; the decided lack of any hint of discrimination as it applies to all unvaccinated minors, regardless of religion or ethnicity, pointing out that while much of the affected community are Jewish Orthodox, not all of it is -- for example, the school whose students sued after being banned is a Waldorf school, not a Jewish Yeshiva. ”


They did include all unvaccinated minors as to not appear to be discriminating against the Jewish community. But looks like Dorit Reiss and James Edgar Hervey’s advice was dead wrong in their understanding of the law. And they majorly overstepped their bounds.
I doubt that James Edgar Hervey gave Mr. Day any advice since Hervey died in 1996. Dorit Reiss's position at Hastings is endowed in honor of Mr. Hervey.

The judge who lifted the ban disagreed with Reiss. It is yet to be seen who is right. If the outbreak continues the judge may have second thoughts.

Dorit Reiss:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/30/opini...iss/index.html

"The ban fits within principles of public health law and ethics. It limits personal autonomy -- but it limits it in the context of a clear threat, and after previous lesser measures were used."
 
Old 04-06-2019, 12:33 PM
 
9,565 posts, read 5,756,146 times
Reputation: 9631
The judge’s legal opinion and authority trumps Dorit Reiss’, the ultimate vaccine extremist, legal opinion anyday of the week.
 
Old 04-06-2019, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,865 posts, read 102,224,882 times
Reputation: 32940
"(T)he public-health cost was as much as $5.3 million in 2011 for efforts to contain measles during 16 outbreaks with 107 total cases." Eight years ago and far fewer cases.

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/hea...fe/1904555002/
 
Old 04-06-2019, 12:54 PM
 
6,277 posts, read 3,538,807 times
Reputation: 7172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
None of the major world religions oppose vaccines. Most offer vaccines in their missions work. There are sub-groups in all religions that I'm familiar with that do oppose vaccines. In developed countries, opposition to vaccines usually doesn't cause a problem because of herd immunity. However, we are seeing as herd immunity drops, that outbreaks can happen. A non-denominational Christian church in Texas was opposed to vaccines until a measles outbreak happened there.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...tate-vaccines/
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...arent-any.html
https://www.npr.org/2013/09/01/21774...asles-outbreak
The Catholic Church allows individual conscience when it comes to fetal cell lines. Look it up.

Then with Philosophical Exemptions no Vegan would object to Bovine Serum and Monkey Cells in vaccines? Tell me there aren't those in vaccines.
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