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Old 04-09-2019, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Upstate NY
33,508 posts, read 9,970,492 times
Reputation: 31712

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
The anger and hatred is really hard to take from people who don’t understand. There are states where they are trying to limit medical exemptions to ACIP guidelines which essentially means if the reactions was anything other then anaphylaxis your daughter would have to get subsequent vaccinations even though you and your doctor agreed that she should not get anymore.

I’m really frustrated and sad that people have gotten so hysterical over this that they feel emboldened to treat others so terribly. It scares me to see how easily people will give up their right to choose and not see anything at all wrong with coercion that greatly impacts peoepls’ lives and eliminates choice.

True. The mean-spirited histrionics, and dredging up old celebs to make a specious point, aren't addressing the issue.

 
Old 04-09-2019, 06:03 PM
 
48 posts, read 8,944 times
Reputation: 147
If parents choose to not have their child vaccinated, then if the child gets the disease the vaccination would have prevented, the child should not be covered by health insurance for any and all expenses incurred in the treatment of that disease.
 
Old 04-09-2019, 06:05 PM
Status: "Spring has Sprung!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,346 posts, read 101,350,397 times
Reputation: 32752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delahanty View Post
True. The mean-spirited histrionics, and dredging up old celebs to make a specious point, aren't addressing the issue.
What "old celebs" are you talking about?
 
Old 04-09-2019, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
22,552 posts, read 27,508,553 times
Reputation: 28168
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
https://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...accinated-muhc

We will always have measles outbreaks even with 100% measles vaccine compliance.
From your link:

"The MUHC has monitored closely all its hospitalized patients who might have been exposed to the contagious employee, while sending letters to those who have returned home. To date, public-health authorities have not reported any additional infections."

Until there are more cases there is not yet an outbreak. It will be another week or so before the incubation period is over and the number of additional cases is known, if there are any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
They are trying to take away exemptions in a number of states, including the erosion of medical exemptions. Eventually one will have to decide between vaccinating for everything the government says one must vaccinate for and going to college. How can you claim that there’s real choice in that?

The consequences of not vaccinating are that you are at a higher risk of getting the illnesses that the vaccine is for and subsequently, a higher risk of any complications, including death. Those are the consequences. There’s no valid reason to take away a child’s right to an education. There are already rules in place that would exclude unvaccinated children from school during outbreaks.

We will ALWAYS have outbreaks. Vaccination rates are pretty darn high even with exemptions. I think the people pushing to take exemptions away are not thinking clearly or thinking this through and have no idea what true informed consent and choice mean.
You are blind to the consequences to other people that your not vaccinating can cause.

The problem is that the people with "exemptions" cluster together, creating undervaccinated pockets that foster larger outbreaks.

You are the one who does not understand what "true informed consent" is. You are making your decision not to vaccinate based on very poor information. That is not being informed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Not true. You’re ignoring what happened in Quebec in 2011.
Yes, vaccinated people in that outbreak did catch measles. It is not possible to tell from the info on the internet whether any of the people who had had two doses of vaccine and still got measles gave it to anyone else. Typically they do not. They also are less sick and get well faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. "Your baby's cause of death was death from suddenly dying".

Genius.

You know why the "back to sleep" campaign seemed to decrease SIDS mortality? Because that's how you decrease the risk of dying during sleep for people with seizure disorders:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0121173534.htm

But I remember that your position on post-vaccination seizures is that they are "common" &"benign"?
There is a case definition for SIDS.

https://www.cdc.gov/healthcommunicat...fantDeath.html

"Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) is defined as the sudden death of an infant under one year of age that cannot be explained after a thorough case investigation, including a complete autopsy, examination of the death scene, and review of the clinical history."

A death from a seizure would not be classified as SIDS because there is another explanation for the death.

Febrile seizures are common after vaccination. They may scare the bejeebus out of parents but they are also benign.

"Febrile seizures are a common and typically benign childhood condition, occurring in 2-5% of children at some point during their first five years of life. Febrile seizures have an estimated background incidence of 240–480 per 100,000 person-years in children under five years, although this varies considerably by age, genetics, co-morbidities and environmental risk factors. There are no long-term effects of simple febrile seizures, with the possible exception of an increased risk of recurrence [1-4].

Considering the benign nature of simple febrile seizures, the rarity of vaccine-induced febrile seizures and the relative frequency of fever related to natural infection particularly among young children, the benefits of vaccination greatly outweigh the minimal risk of vaccine complications."

One of my granddaughters had a febrile seizure with an upper respiratory infection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
1918 Flu Pandemic? While I obviously wasn't born then, I am 70 and my Grandparents certainly were alive then. My Grandma was pregnant with my Dad in 1918. Grandpa was a NYC Trolley Car Conductor. Imagine all the people he came into contact with? My Paternal side had four, and one unborn, young children then. None of them died. Same for my Mom's side of the family in NYC which had six young children.

Neither side of my family ever talked about that Flu Pandemic to me. but they DID talk about the Great Depression. I suppose that made more of an impression on them than the 1918 Flu Pandemic in NYC.
Good for your family. Other families were not so lucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Zero chance of that & you know that I know that. Your just trying to invalidate my message by transference; transferring the looney-tune, “tin-foil-hat” image onto me by use of the word; “conspiracy”.

There is no conspiracy at this level of authority. All news & reports that might implicate a vaccine, valid or not; will be almost by definition: Antivaccine. Antivaccine is considered “fake news”. Including legitimate studies that might otherwise alert us to a safety issue or even a recall.

The media thinks they are doing a public service by not perpetuating Antivaccine rumors. The CDC representatives that networked with the media also believe they are doing the right thing. The experts that instructed those representatives believe this is the right thing. Everyone (almost) who supports this believes they are doing the right thing. Worldwide conspiracies don’t work. Conspiracies among just a few do.

Not an uncommon personality trait among doctors. Consider the source; Respectful Insolence? Gorski? He’s an Oncologist specializing in breast cancer & a smart enough guy in his own right. But Zimmerman is a Pediatric Neurologist specializing in Autism. So, ...?

Dr. Zimmerman did not say that the research is showing that mitochondrial disease is autism.

Dr. Zimmerman said that the research is showing that vaccines can cause autism in children with mitochondrial disorders.

I get “error” messages.

So there is a worldwide conspiracy amongst parents of autistic children to cash in on their child’s permanent disability?

By definition, complex genetic disorders require a non-genetic, environmental factor:

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/mutat...mplexdisorders
When you describe a wholesale effort on the part of sites like Google to suppress anti-vax information that is by definition a conspiracy theory. A simple Google search for "vaccine injury" brings up the anti-vax site NVIC on the very first page. Go to their site and you can find tons of antivax "studies".

Gorski tackles anti-vax pseudoscience and explains why it is wrong. You are welcome to try to refute anything he has said. Care to give us an example of something he has said that is wrong?

Vaccines do not cause autism in children with mitochondrial disease. A fever associated with vaccination might precipitate symptoms, but so will fevers from other causes, including infections.

The fact that the way vaccines are monitored for safety after release picked up the intussusception problem with the original rotavirus vaccine and resulted in its removal from the market invalidates your thesis that that is not being done. There was a safety signal and it was acted upon.

Please tell us what some of these studies were about that you can no longer find.

There is no parental conspiracy. It is just natural for parents without a science background to find it difficult to understand that just because they recognized symptoms of autism after a vaccine was given does not mean that a vaccine caused autism. It is also natural to want to find something to blame, and in the US lawsuits follow the blame.

Whatever environmental influences are associated with autism, vaccines are not one of them.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168222/

"Most of the focus to date involving childhood vaccination and autism has centered on MMR vaccination. Specifically, in the case of the risk of autism, several recent studies indicate that MMR vaccination does not increase the risk of autism. This includes a study where the MMR vaccine was administered for a 4-year period (1989–1993) in Japan; the incidence of autism was not different across the interval before, during, and after this MMR vaccination window (95). Baird et al. reported no dose response associations between the antibody response to measles virus or the measles component of the MMR in children with autism versus two control groups of children (one control group with specific educational needs unrelated to autism and a typically developing group of children). In a very recent case-controlled study, Mrozek-Budzyn et al. found no association between either MMR vaccination or single measles vaccine administration and risk of autism."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
The anger and hatred is really hard to take from people who don’t understand. There are states where they are trying to limit medical exemptions to ACIP guidelines which essentially means if the reactions was anything other then anaphylaxis your daughter would have to get subsequent vaccinations even though you and your doctor agreed that she should not get anymore.

I’m really frustrated and sad that people have gotten so hysterical over this that they feel emboldened to treat others so terribly. It scares me to see how easily people will give up their right to choose and not see anything at all wrong with coercion that greatly impacts peoepls’ lives and eliminates choice.
The ACIP guidelines are science based. There are other reasons than anaphylaxis to avoid certain vaccines, but allergy to one vaccine is seldom a reason to avoid all of them.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/aci...dications.html

You can choose not to vaccinate. You just do not want to accept the responsibilities that go with your choice.
 
Old 04-09-2019, 09:38 PM
 
Location: South Australia
159 posts, read 16,060 times
Reputation: 322
Default Godwins law

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
By asking for their papers. That’s how the nazis did it.
Wow! That was quick. Godwins Law 4 posts into a thread. I'm impressed.


Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies)[1][2] is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1";[2][3] that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which effectively the discussion or thread often ends. Promulgated by the American attorney and author Mike Godwin in 1990,[2] Godwin's law originally referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions.[4] It is now applied to any threaded online discussion, such as Internet forums, chat rooms, and comment threads, as well as to speeches, articles, and other rhetoric[5][6] where reductio ad Hitlerum occurs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
 
Old 04-09-2019, 10:03 PM
 
433 posts, read 70,709 times
Reputation: 697
Wow the vaccine propaganda really is raging. Don't question the push though. Remember they are good for you. Government has never lied to or misled anyone before.
 
Old 04-09-2019, 10:10 PM
 
433 posts, read 70,709 times
Reputation: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
It scares me to see how easily people will give up their right to choose and not see anything at all wrong with coercion that greatly impacts peoepls’ lives and eliminates choice.
Unfortunately most people believe everything they see on TV and the fear porn propaganda from broadcast news networks. If an "expert" says it, they will believe it.
 
Old 04-09-2019, 10:32 PM
Status: "Spring has Sprung!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,346 posts, read 101,350,397 times
Reputation: 32752
Quote:
Originally Posted by heart84 View Post
Unfortunately most people believe everything they see on TV and the fear porn propaganda from broadcast news networks. If an "expert" says it, they will believe it.
Yep, that's why people believe Wakefield, Dr. Sears, RFK, Jr. and other vaccine nutjobs.
 
Old 04-09-2019, 10:42 PM
 
Location: San José, CA
3,118 posts, read 5,682,221 times
Reputation: 2601
Quote:
Originally Posted by heart84 View Post
Wow the vaccine propaganda really is raging. Don't question the push though. Remember they are good for you. Government has never lied to or misled anyone before.
Sigh. Listen, I'm as anti-government as the next guy, but what we're dealing with is based on scientific research, discovery, and medicine, and the potential consequences of not doing the recommended thing that's being proffered. Simply put, there is so little actual evidence carried out by folks on the anti-vaccine side, so little money in it for people offering the vaccines, and mounting evidence that NOT vaccinated is far worse.

I came at this from the center without an opinion and joined Facebook groups to learn about the ideas of the anti-vaccine folks prior to having my daughter. I probably put in 1,000 hours of reading. At the same time, I'm in academia so I also spent myriad hours perusing medical journals looking for anything to corroborate the claims scientifically. Afterall, if there was anything to this than simply misinformation being bandied about, surely someone would have recreated these claims in labs. And for those who believe that somehow people in the medical science community would be censored for making such claims (a popular explanation for why there is literally NO corroboration in scientific community), just remember that there are even scientists out there who push to prove Creationism, for C's sake. There is no censorship in the medical science community UNLESS you're simply hell bent on pushing bad science in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. And even then, there's no stopping them. So, why is there literally zero evidence for these claims if these vaccines are as dangerous as internet helicopter moms believe?

It's a tough pill to swallow, but the truth is, that most of the people making claims and pushing their well-intentioned, but ill-researched claims on others on Facebook -- the new method of chain letters -- have no scientific background and they often lack the critical thinking skills necessary to decipher GOOD evidence from BAD evidence.

It's really sad when these people adversely affect their children, and we're seeing just a small resulting affect of these poor decisions right now. I implore you to step away from people who have no clue what they're talking about, are speaking purely from a frightened, emotional state, and dip your toes into the medical research community to see if evidence truly exists for your stance.

Last edited by llowllevellowll; 04-09-2019 at 10:58 PM..
 
Old 04-09-2019, 10:59 PM
 
12,253 posts, read 10,180,943 times
Reputation: 16902
Quote:
Originally Posted by heart84 View Post
Wow the vaccine propaganda really is raging. Don't question the push though. Remember they are good for you. Government has never lied to or misled anyone before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heart84 View Post
Unfortunately most people believe everything they see on TV and the fear porn propaganda from broadcast news networks. If an "expert" says it, they will believe it.
You are not the smart one. You think you are, but you aren't. If attitudes like yours weren't so risky to the general public, I'd find it funny.
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