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Old 04-04-2019, 02:39 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 5,579,539 times
Reputation: 9374

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I understand that you can’t see the difference between banning unvaccinated kids from a school when there is an active outbreak of the disease at the school vs banning all unvaccinated children in a county of 300,000 from leaving their homes during an outbreak (5 active cases) but there absolutely is a big difference between the two scenarios.

Last edited by MissTerri; 04-04-2019 at 02:57 PM..

 
Old 04-04-2019, 02:42 PM
 
21,459 posts, read 27,458,915 times
Reputation: 15703
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
What do you consider legit medical reasons not to vaccinate? Isn’t that a decision that one should make with their doctor?
Exactly. It's a decision someone should make with their doctor, not because they read some pseudo-science junk on the internet. And those with legit medical reasons not to vaccinate aren't terribly likely to insist on their "rights" to go to school or other public places during an outbreak of disease. It's the lifestyle anti-vaxxers who are crying that tune.

I don't think you understand that it's not so much the anti-vaxxing stance itself but rather the insistence on putting others at risk. Reasonable people understand the need to minimize the chances of spreading disease. Rights come with responsibilities, but lifestyle anti-vaxxers seem to struggle with the concept of responsibility.

Not angry here; just a bit frustrated by your attempts to twist what I've said. As far as conspiracies, you're using language common to vaccine conspiracy theorists.

Still can't answer a simple question, I see.

Last edited by Metlakatla; 04-04-2019 at 02:54 PM..
 
Old 04-04-2019, 02:50 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 5,579,539 times
Reputation: 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
Exactly. It's a decision someone should make with their doctor, not because they read some pseudo-science junk on the internet. And those with legit medical reasons not to vaccinate aren't terribly likely to insist on their "rights" to go to school or other public places during an outbreak of disease. It's the lifestyle anti-vaxxers who are crying that tune.

I don't think you understand that it's not so much the anti-vaxxing stance itself but rather the insistence on putting others at risk. Reasonable people understand the need to minimize the chances of spreading disease.

Not angry here; just a bit frustrated by your attempts to twist what I've said. As far as conspiracies, you're using language common to vaccine conspiracy theorists.
Iím sorry but who ďread some pseudo-scientific junk on the internetĒ? There are risks on either side of the issue. There are risks inherent in not vaccinating and there are risks inherent in vaccinating. Weíre not all perfect clones of one another and due to that fact, some peopleís bodies may react in different ways both to disease and to vaccines.

Iíve read a ton of scientific literature on vaccines, not pseudoscience junk, real peer reviewed scientific studies. I donít agree with those who claim that the science is settled or that there is only one right way to do things or even one correct pathway to health. Not even all of the experts are in agreement. I take issue with people wanting to take away informed consent.

I donít appreciate being labeled and donít believe that I tried to twist what youíve said. There really is a difference between autoimmune disease and immune compromised and I was asking for clarification. Iím frustrated too.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 02:51 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 5,579,539 times
Reputation: 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post

Still can't answer a simple question, I see.
I thought I did but if there’s something else I missed then feel free to ask again.

Last edited by MissTerri; 04-04-2019 at 03:01 PM..
 
Old 04-04-2019, 03:07 PM
Status: "Spring has Sprung!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,352 posts, read 101,350,397 times
Reputation: 32752
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Just because a person is unvaccinated does not mean that they are harboring vaccine preventable disease and are going around in a constant state of contagiousness. Even people who have all of their vaccines still can and do spread germs.

Are you talking about immune compromised or people with autoimmune disease? They are different things you know.

This outbreak has been going on for months yet not a single person has died or had any serious complications.

Yes, banning unvaccinated minors from public is overkill.
Granted there have not been any deaths, thankfully, in these latest measles outbreaks. However, I don't know how you can say there have not been any serious complications. 30% of measles patients have at least one complication. Rockland County does not list the hospitalizations, but their website says 25% of measles cases are hospitalized. County of Rockland, New York :: Measles Information The main reason for hospitalization is pneumonia. People can also get hearing loss from measles, and that sometimes isn't apparent at first. I have a mild hearing loss from either measles or mumps, and I'm pretty sure my mom just thought I wasn't listening to her! I found out on an audiogram when I had a physical for a job. And then there is SSPE, a horrifying syndrome that can happen years later and is universally fatal.
https://www.vaccinestoday.eu/stories...#comment-55874 The child in this story spent 10 years dying.
Get back to us in about 15 years with this "(no) serious complications".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Um, yes, Children really were experiencing serious side effects as a result of the DTP vaccine. Believe it or not.
WashingtonPost.com: EXPOSED
You do manage to dig up the most obscure stories. Actually, you have them at your fingertips. Where is the repository? NVIC? Some other source like Whale? (I saw a reference to Whale when I looked up "Andrew Clements".) Other readers may be interested to know that your story from 21 years ago ends like this: "On July 30, Millman finishes her deliberations: She dismisses the Clementses' case, finding that under the new regulations, they failed to prove that DPT caused Andrew's epilepsy. "The undersigned sympathizes with the Clements family for their situation and was very favorably impressed with Mrs. Clements as a witness and a mother," she writes in her decision. "However, petitioners may prevail solely on the evidence they present, not on the sympathy they engender." " Keep in mind this is a legal decision, not a medical one, and this in a "court" that requires only "50% plus a feather" for evidence. In a real civil court, they would have been creamed. Which is why we have "vaccine court" in the first place. Note that only one physician testified in this story, and he was one of these "lone wolf, I know something you don't know" docs.
"Menkes alienated some of his colleagues by serving as a witness in several trials, particularly some in which parents claimed that the diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus, or DPT, vaccine catastrophically damaged their children. . . That experience made him "financially far more successful than he would have been at a university," Sankar said, and Menkes used some of the proceeds to become a noted art collector."
https://www.latimes.com/science/la-m...v29-story.html
Follow the money.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 03:07 PM
 
21,459 posts, read 27,458,915 times
Reputation: 15703
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I thought I did but if thereís something else I missed then feel free to ask again.
The one in post #29. I'm not asking again; it was mainly just curiosity, and I'm really not that interested.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 03:18 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 5,579,539 times
Reputation: 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
The one in post #29. I'm not asking again; it was mainly just curiosity, and I'm really not that interested.

I believe there has to be a balance. Does it make sense for unvaccinated kids to stay home from school in the event of an outbreak at their school? Yes, absolutely. The risk is high. Does it makes sense to ban them from being in public in a county of 300,000 when there are a total of five active cases? No, I don’t think so, the risk is low.

People have the right to make medical decisions for themselves. There’s also no such thing as the right to never be exposed to germs, illness or disease. There needs to be a balance in terms in terms of community health and individual freedoms.

No, I wouldn’t support a lawsuit against someone who was not vaccinated if they got someone else sick unless that person went out of their way to expose that person and get them sick. Malicious intent.

Do you support parents of vaccine injured kids ability to sue vaccine makers? Something they are not allowed to do?
 
Old 04-04-2019, 03:19 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 5,579,539 times
Reputation: 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Granted there have not been any deaths, thankfully, in these latest measles outbreaks. However, I don't know how you can say there have not been any serious complications. 30% of measles patients have at least one complication. Rockland County does not list the hospitalizations, but their website says 25% of measles cases are hospitalized. County of Rockland, New York :: Measles Information The main reason for hospitalization is pneumonia. People can also get hearing loss from measles, and that sometimes isn't apparent at first. I have a mild hearing loss from either measles or mumps, and I'm pretty sure my mom just thought I wasn't listening to her! I found out on an audiogram when I had a physical for a job. And then there is SSPE, a horrifying syndrome that can happen years later and is universally fatal.
https://www.vaccinestoday.eu/stories...#comment-55874 The child in this story spent 10 years dying.
Get back to us in about 15 years with this "(no) serious complications".



You do manage to dig up the most obscure stories. Actually, you have them at your fingertips. Where is the repository? NVIC? Some other source like Whale? (I saw a reference to Whale when I looked up "Andrew Clements".) Other readers may be interested to know that your story from 21 years ago ends like this: "On July 30, Millman finishes her deliberations: She dismisses the Clementses' case, finding that under the new regulations, they failed to prove that DPT caused Andrew's epilepsy. "The undersigned sympathizes with the Clements family for their situation and was very favorably impressed with Mrs. Clements as a witness and a mother," she writes in her decision. "However, petitioners may prevail solely on the evidence they present, not on the sympathy they engender." " Keep in mind this is a legal decision, not a medical one, and this in a "court" that requires only "50% plus a feather" for evidence. In a real civil court, they would have been creamed. Which is why we have "vaccine court" in the first place. Note that only one physician testified in this story, and he was one of these "lone wolf, I know something you don't know" docs.
"Menkes alienated some of his colleagues by serving as a witness in several trials, particularly some in which parents claimed that the diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus, or DPT, vaccine catastrophically damaged their children. . . That experience made him "financially far more successful than he would have been at a university," Sankar said, and Menkes used some of the proceeds to become a noted art collector."
https://www.latimes.com/science/la-m...v29-story.html
Follow the money.
You totally misssed the point of that story.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
22,559 posts, read 27,508,553 times
Reputation: 28168
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Again with the name calling. Iím not your ďdear heartĒ.

Measles in Rockland County is mostly confined to an Orthodox Community and it was brought to that Orthodox community by someone who had visitied Israel. There have been 161 case in the county since the Fall with zero complications. Currently they claim 5 active cases in the entire county, still pretty much confined to the religious community. Banning every child in the county from being in public and calling this an emergency is a major over -reaction. Youíre fine with it because it aligns with your 100% compliance agenda and are so sure that you have all of the answers. I think itís a major over-reaction and one to designed to cause panic, fear, intimidation and hatred.
The ban is not due to the number of cases but because they have not been able to stop the outbreak after six months.

The "religious community" may stay mostly in the community but it shops in other areas of the county, too.

Not every child is banned, just those whose parents refuse to give them the measles vaccine.

Please provide your source that there have been "zero complications". Odds are one in four cases will be hospitalized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Just because a person is unvaccinated does not mean that they are harboring vaccine preventable disease and are going around in a constant state of contagiousness. Even people who have all of their vaccines still can and do spread germs.

Are you talking about immune compromised or people with autoimmune disease? They are different things you know.

This outbreak has been going on for months yet not a single person has died or had any serious complications.

Yes, banning unvaccinated minors from public is overkill.
You miss the point. The ban is not due to the idea that every unvaccinated person will be spreading measles. It is due to the fact that those unvaccinated children have a 90% chance of catching measles if exposed to it. In a crowd they could be exposed to someone who is incubating measles and does not know it.

People with autoimmune disease are immunocompromised, so it is unclear what you think the difference is.

Yes, the outbreak is ongoing. That is the entire point. People with family members with measles are refusing to talk to public health officials so that contacts can be traced and offered vaccination, immune globulin, or asked to stay home until they pass the incubation period.

The whole mess lies on the doorstep of the anti-vaxers.

What is needed is for the people with family members with measles to let the public health folks do their jobs and the people with children who have not been vaccinated to keep them out of school and public spaces.

The ones with kids who cannot go to school should be lobbying like crazy to get the ones with kids with measles to do the right thing.

Another option is to vaccinate your unvaccinated children.
 
Old 04-04-2019, 03:21 PM
Status: "Spring has Sprung!" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,352 posts, read 101,350,397 times
Reputation: 32752
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
You totally misssed the point of that story.
I don't think so. It was written as a typical AV story, lots of emotionalism. The facts did not support the case. And what does DTP vaccine, no longer in use, have to do with measles anyway.
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