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Old 04-10-2019, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Washington state
6,988 posts, read 4,844,733 times
Reputation: 21794

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Ok, you medical professionals, and pro vaccinators, where is your outrage over the 186 children who died from the FLU last year? 80,000 adults? How many have died from Measles last year?

Come on, you medical professionals! DEMAND that all children get their YEARLY Flu Shots, or not be able to attend school, and while you are at it (Suzy Q), raise the premiums for every ADULT who doesn't do the same. Why are you singling out just Measles vaccinations? This is because the general public has bought your Kool Aid for these other diseases, but not your propaganda for "Deadly Flu". "Doctors have never seen measles before". Damn, I HAVE and can tell you just by looking the difference between measles and chicken pox. They do not even look alike.

Flu quarantine is very soon if people don't put a stop to all this right now.
The simple reasons measles is being singled out are 1) It's extremely transmissible. If you put someone with measles in a room, up to 4 hours later 90% of all the people who enter that room afterwards will get measles. 2) Measles is not like the flu where different flu strains mutate and circle around the globe every year. Flu can't be prevented 100% because of this. Measles can be prevented. 3) Measles was once eradicated in the US. It's a moral disgrace that here in the US we have a lower vaccination rate than many third world countries.

And I've already pointed out twice that deaths from flu are a percentage of the number of measles cases. There have already been deaths due to measles and as the number of cases rise, so do the number of deaths. And why are you so wound up over deaths anyway? I would think the number of children who are are left debilitated by measles would concern you just as much and that number is far higher than the number of deaths.

Hospitalization resulting from measles is 1 in 4 cases. Encephalitis from measles is 1 in 1000 cases. Death is 1 to 2 in 1000 cases. In 2018, France recorded more than 2,500 cases of measles by May, including three deaths and high rates of hospitalization (22%). There are your deaths.

The estimated public health cost in the US in 2011 with only 107 cases of measles was 2.7 to 5.3 million dollars. From January 1 to April 4 2019, 465 individual cases of measles have been confirmed in 19 states. Care to guess what the cost is now?

Between 2000 and 2016, 20.4 million deaths from measles were prevented by vaccination across the world. Seriously, how many millions of deaths will it take to convince you that vaccines work? Do 20.4 million people (most of them children) need to die first?

Before the vaccine was developed in 1964, there were half a million measles cases reported to the CDC each year, resulting in 48,000 hospitalizations, 1000 cases of encephalitis, and 450 to 500 deaths. PER YEAR.

By the way, if a flu as severe as the one we had in 1918 arrives, there definitely will be quarantines. Bet on it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
But if she was a child now, getting to ready to enter Kindergarten you’d tell Kara to homeschool her and accept the consequences of her choices not to vaccinate in spite of her reaction.
No one would tell Kara to homeschool her child. You are so totally missing the point here. Kara's daughter has a reaction to the vaccine. She's one of the people who can't be vaccinated. Therefore, all other people who CAN be vaccinated need to be vaccinated to protect Kara's daughter from measles.

 
Old 04-10-2019, 11:35 AM
 
26,661 posts, read 13,670,573 times
Reputation: 19118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I'm sorry you don't think you have to support your claims. If you don't like my previous link, here's another one.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
"The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove."

We have to believe you made that up.
You sure have no problem looking up blogs and “gotcha” type links”. I’ll give you that.

You can believe I made this up if you want. However the information is readily available and open to the public.
 
Old 04-10-2019, 11:37 AM
 
26,661 posts, read 13,670,573 times
Reputation: 19118
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodentraiser View Post
No one would tell Kara to homeschool her child. You are so totally missing the point here. Kara's daughter has a reaction to the vaccine. She's one of the people who can't be vaccinated. Therefore, all other people who CAN be vaccinated need to be vaccinated to protect Kara's daughter from measles.
Kids can be absolutely denied medical exemptions if the reaction does not meet a narrow set of circumstances. She absolutely could be denied that exemption.
 
Old 04-10-2019, 11:50 AM
 
11,412 posts, read 7,763,909 times
Reputation: 21922
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Kids can be absolutely denied medical exemptions if the reaction does not meet a narrow set of circumstances. She absolutely could be denied that exemption.
So what, in your view, should be the criteria? You keep asking other people to clarify their stances on vaccines and the consequences for not vaccinating and yet never respond when people request you do the same.

If you ran the world, list the criteria to be met for not getting vaccinated. And be specific. No more evading or “it’s between the parent and the doctor”. That answer is meaningless unless you state which party has the overriding vote.
 
Old 04-10-2019, 11:53 AM
 
26,661 posts, read 13,670,573 times
Reputation: 19118
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
So what, in your view, should be the criteria? You keep asking other people to clarify their stances on vaccines and the consequences for not vaccinating and yet never respond when people request you do the same.

If you ran the world, list the criteria you would make law. And be specific. No more evading.
I thought my position was clear and don’t believe I’ve been evading. This should be a decision made between a patient and their doctor. A doctor should be the one to grant exemptions without outside influences such as the ACIP or the government.
 
Old 04-10-2019, 11:55 AM
 
11,412 posts, read 7,763,909 times
Reputation: 21922
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
I thought my position was clear and don’t believe I’ve been evading. This should be a decision made between a patient and their doctor. A doctor should be the one to grant exemptions without outside influences such as the ACIP or the government.
So you support a doctor granting exemptions without any verifiable medical reason to do so. Ok, follow up question:

And if the doctor refuses the exemption, do you support that decision?
 
Old 04-10-2019, 11:58 AM
 
26,661 posts, read 13,670,573 times
Reputation: 19118
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
So you support a doctor who grants exemptions without any verifiable medical reason to do so. Got it.
They do have the education and knowledge to make those decisions. They also know their patients medical history better then anyone else. Why wouldn’t they be the best people to provide medical exemptions?
 
Old 04-10-2019, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,020 posts, read 41,072,493 times
Reputation: 44956
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
You can believe I made this up if you want. However the information is readily available and open to the public.
Dang. Just post the link, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Kids can be absolutely denied medical exemptions if the reaction does not meet a narrow set of circumstances. She absolutely could be denied that exemption.
If it does not meet the criteria for a medical exemption it can certainly be denied. You just want there to be exemptions for conditions that are not caused by vaccines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
They do have the education and knowledge to make those decisions. They also know their patients medical history better then anyone else. Why wouldn’t they be the best people to provide medical exemptions?
Because some of them are selling exemptions to children without a valid indication for them.

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 04-10-2019 at 12:12 PM..
 
Old 04-10-2019, 12:04 PM
 
11,412 posts, read 7,763,909 times
Reputation: 21922
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
They do have the education and knowledge to make those decisions. They also know their patients medical history better then anyone else. Why wouldn’t they be the best people to provide medical exemptions?
Except that’s not what’s happening out here in the real world. Unethical doctors are granting exceptions for patients they’ve never seen or because some jerk of a parent pays them to do so. Since the let’s trust the doctor method has failed, states are demanding doctors adhere to medically verifiable reasons. That way they can prosecute the unethical ones gaming the system.

What happened to the answer to my follow up question:

If a doctor declines to give a medical waiver, do you accept that decision? I’m assuming you do since they have the education and knowledge to make that call.
 
Old 04-10-2019, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Washington state
6,988 posts, read 4,844,733 times
Reputation: 21794
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Kids can be absolutely denied medical exemptions if the reaction does not meet a narrow set of circumstances. She absolutely could be denied that exemption.
And whose fault is that? If it hadn't been for anti-vaxxers abusing the medical and religious exemptions and not getting their kids vaccinated in the first place, Kara's daughter wouldn't have a thing to worry about.
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