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Old 04-11-2019, 11:11 AM
 
21,212 posts, read 16,334,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbones View Post
This is what makes people skeptical about scientists these days. That's not an actual image although they are leading you to believe it is. The telescope arrays used don't take pictures they are radio telescopes. That is a computer generated image with the code to generate it written by humans so it's actually a human interpretation of the radio wave data. I find it quite ironic that the generated image looks pretty much exactly like the theoretical drawings and what you see on the science channel. If you go back and look at all other theoretical drawings and then the real actual photo, take Pluto for example, the drawings were close but wrong. That leads me to believe that this is wrong also. Close, absolutely but this is NOT a real photograph. Everywhere on the internet today you are seeing articles saying this is an actual photograph. It's not. The article in the OP says the same thing. No mention that it is radio wave data that was transformed into an image with a computer algorithm which ultimately is a human interpretation and not an actual real image. It's really cool but it's not all that groundbreaking. The data has been available that tells the story of black holes for a while now, the only new thing is the image generated, which again is most likely not 100% accurate and just a human interpretation of the data that was made to look like the theoretical images. It would be really groundbreaking if it actually WAS a real photograph.
Oh, good grief. The scientists involved in the EHT project went into great detail explaining how the data was gathered and resolved to produce the image of the shadow of the black hole. No one is trying to mislead anyone. And yes, it is a groundbreaking achievement.
''Creating the EHT was a formidable challenge which required upgrading and connecting a worldwide network of eight pre-existing telescopes deployed at a variety of challenging high-altitude sites. These locations included volcanoes in Hawai`i and Mexico, mountains in Arizona and the Spanish Sierra Nevada, the Chilean Atacama Desert, and Antarctica.

The EHT observations use a technique called very-long-baseline interferometry (VLBI) which synchronises telescope facilities around the world and exploits the rotation of our planet to form one huge, Earth-size telescope observing at a wavelength of 1.3 mm. VLBI allows the EHT to achieve an angular resolution of 20 micro-arcseconds enough to read a newspaper in New York from a sidewalk caf in Paris [6].

The telescopes contributing to this result were ALMA, APEX, the IRAM 30-meter telescope, the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope, the Large Millimeter Telescope Alfonso Serrano, the Submillimeter Array, the Submillimeter Telescope, and the South Pole Telescope [7]. Petabytes of raw data from the telescopes were combined by highly specialised supercomputers hosted by the Max Planck Institute for Radio Astronomy and MIT Haystack Observatory.

The construction of the EHT and the observations announced today represent the culmination of decades of observational, technical, and theoretical work. This example of global teamwork required close collaboration by researchers from around the world. Thirteen partner institutions worked together to create the EHT, using both pre-existing infrastructure and support from a variety of agencies. Key funding was provided by the US National Science Foundation (NSF), the EU's European Research Council (ERC), and funding agencies in East Asia.

"We have achieved something presumed to be impossible just a generation ago," concluded Doeleman. "Breakthroughs in technology, connections between the world's best radio observatories, and innovative algorithms all came together to open an entirely new window on black holes and the event horizon."

https://eventhorizontelescope.org/
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:18 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
6,417 posts, read 10,490,958 times
Reputation: 5394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Oh, good grief. The scientists involved in the EHT project went into great detail explaining how the data was gathered and resolved to produce the image of the shadow of the black hole. No one is trying to mislead anyone. And yes, it is a groundbreaking achievement.
''Creating the EHT was a formidable challenge which required upgrading and connecting a worldwide network of eight pre-existing telescopes deployed at a variety of challenging high-altitude sites. These locations included volcanoes in Hawai`i and Mexico, mountains in Arizona and the Spanish Sierra Nevada, the Chilean Atacama Desert, and Antarctica.

The EHT observations use a technique called very-long-baseline interferometry (VLBI) which synchronises telescope facilities around the world and exploits the rotation of our planet to form one huge, Earth-size telescope observing at a wavelength of 1.3 mm. VLBI allows the EHT to achieve an angular resolution of 20 micro-arcseconds — enough to read a newspaper in New York from a sidewalk caf in Paris [6].

The telescopes contributing to this result were ALMA, APEX, the IRAM 30-meter telescope, the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope, the Large Millimeter Telescope Alfonso Serrano, the Submillimeter Array, the Submillimeter Telescope, and the South Pole Telescope [7]. Petabytes of raw data from the telescopes were combined by highly specialised supercomputers hosted by the Max Planck Institute for Radio Astronomy and MIT Haystack Observatory.

The construction of the EHT and the observations announced today represent the culmination of decades of observational, technical, and theoretical work. This example of global teamwork required close collaboration by researchers from around the world. Thirteen partner institutions worked together to create the EHT, using both pre-existing infrastructure and support from a variety of agencies. Key funding was provided by the US National Science Foundation (NSF), the EU's European Research Council (ERC), and funding agencies in East Asia.

"We have achieved something presumed to be impossible just a generation ago," concluded Doeleman. "Breakthroughs in technology, connections between the world's best radio observatories, and innovative algorithms all came together to open an entirely new window on black holes and the event horizon."

https://eventhorizontelescope.org/
Your attempt at an apology actually reinforces the impression that the whole thing, to coin a contemporary phrase, is photo-shopped, for any number of reasons, yes, perhaps a few of them "science".

Now, an earthquake is literally groundbreaking, something we may all experience with our own eyes and hands.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:54 AM
 
21,212 posts, read 16,334,643 times
Reputation: 8263
Quote:
Originally Posted by bale002 View Post
Your attempt at an apology actually reinforces the impression that the whole thing, to coin a contemporary phrase, is photo-shopped, for any number of reasons, yes, perhaps a few of them "science".

Now, an earthquake is literally groundbreaking, something we may all experience with our own eyes and hands.
By apology you mean defense. People such as yourself and the poster to whom I replied may not be impressed by the fact that a black hole has been imaged for the first time, and may indeed be skeptical about it, but then, your uniformed opinions don't alter what an achievement this really is. You do however insult and belittle the efforts of all the people who were and are involved in the EHT project.

And neither you or the other poster really merit any further attention.
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:44 PM
 
342 posts, read 345,785 times
Reputation: 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbones View Post
This is what makes people skeptical about scientists these days. That's not an actual image although they are leading you to believe it is. The telescope arrays used don't take pictures they are radio telescopes. That is a computer generated image with the code to generate it written by humans so it's actually a human interpretation of the radio wave data. I find it quite ironic that the generated image looks pretty much exactly like the theoretical drawings and what you see on the science channel. If you go back and look at all other theoretical drawings and then the real actual photo, take Pluto for example, the drawings were close but wrong. That leads me to believe that this is wrong also. Close, absolutely but this is NOT a real photograph. Everywhere on the internet today you are seeing articles saying this is an actual photograph. It's not. The article in the OP says the same thing. No mention that it is radio wave data that was transformed into an image with a computer algorithm which ultimately is a human interpretation and not an actual real image. It's really cool but it's not all that groundbreaking. The data has been available that tells the story of black holes for a while now, the only new thing is the image generated, which again is most likely not 100% accurate and just a human interpretation of the data that was made to look like the theoretical images. It would be really groundbreaking if it actually WAS a real photograph.
All they did was convert the signals to a picture. If our eyes were designed to see radio waves instead of light, the picture is what we would see. If you just took an actual picture you wouldn't see anything because the naked human eye wouldn't pick up the frequencies. The difference between this and the previous black hole images you may have seen before is the previous ones were just simulations not based on real data.

Last edited by Diesel350z; 04-11-2019 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:14 PM
 
6,436 posts, read 5,171,691 times
Reputation: 5006
My daughter and I watched the live conference yesterday. How fascinating!
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:28 PM
Status: "Scram gravy ain't wavy" (set 16 hours ago)
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,427 posts, read 3,553,367 times
Reputation: 8128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbones View Post
No mention that it is radio wave data that was transformed into an image with a computer algorithm which ultimately is a human interpretation and not an actual real image.
Radio waves are part of the electromagnetic spectrum, just like visible light. They're just on a different part of the spectrum. You can't see infrared radiation either, but there are devices that can translate the infrared into visible light using -- guess what -- a computer algorithm.
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:31 PM
Status: "Scram gravy ain't wavy" (set 16 hours ago)
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,427 posts, read 3,553,367 times
Reputation: 8128
A size comparison of the solar system and the black hole:

https://m.xkcd.com/2135/
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:33 PM
 
6,436 posts, read 5,171,691 times
Reputation: 5006
Dr. Katie Bouman is so inspirational. My daughter wants to go into science. She starts college this summer. She has more of a boost thanks to Dr. Bouman.
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:55 PM
 
21,212 posts, read 16,334,643 times
Reputation: 8263
Quote:
Originally Posted by KayAnn246 View Post
Dr. Katie Bouman is so inspirational. My daughter wants to go into science. She starts college this summer. She has more of a boost thanks to Dr. Bouman.
Here's more on Dr. Bouman.

https://phys.org/news/2019-04-scient...algorithm.html
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Old 04-11-2019, 03:24 PM
 
131 posts, read 57,092 times
Reputation: 151
That's exactly how I pictured it in my mind before this came out.
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