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Old 04-16-2019, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
8,169 posts, read 8,186,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulsker 1856 View Post
Hey, France just experienced a national tragedy, let's make snide comments!



(then when we're called in it, we'll say "can't ya take a joke???")

That's called passive-aggressiveness. It's not a good look. But, hey, I'm sure you'd see the tremendous humor in snide anti-American jokes if the Statue of Liberty was destroyed in some calamity... right?
I’m not making snide comments. Somebody else may have, but I didn’t read every post. Was just commenting on the internet outrage against people who poke fun at the French in general. That’s an age old debate, or even a sport.

Of course we all know what a national tragedy it is for France, and for western civilization. Nobody’s that dense to think otherwise. I am well aware that venerated building has influenced western culture perhaps more than any other structure in Europe since the 13th Century.
But I’ll bet a dollar to a donut plenty of the French will be generating their own bits of humor about this tragedy as an outlet for their feelings. Dark humor is not a new thing, and there was plenty of it after 9/11.

Personally, I am very relieved there was no loss of life in such a spectacular fire, and am amazed at the way the Paris firefighters fought the blaze and undoubtedly saved most of the building from total destruction. My nephew is a firefighter with a specialty in engineering, so the methods used in the response were fascinating to me. It will be very interesting to watch the rebuilding process, and I will be following it as much as possible in the upcoming years.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Nantahala National Forest, NC
25,522 posts, read 5,193,233 times
Reputation: 28518
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Most people turn grey as they age. The wife just keeps on getting blonder.


As we learned of this tragedy on the evening news, she says " Gosh, my uncle Dudley is going to be disappointed....Oh, wait. No, he went to Purdue."


LOL!! Too funny.



But sad subject...many millions donated in just a few days for restoration...glad much of it escaped, the stained glass, relics etc.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:19 PM
 
9,163 posts, read 4,608,556 times
Reputation: 31634
Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
It was news to me that the govt owns Notre Dame. I'm sure all the overtaxed French citizens will be happy to have their pockets picked for the cost of rebuilding the thing.
They have benefited in many different ways, not the least of which is economically through tourism money, from having the Cathedral. I don't think the French people will have any issues with restoring it.
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 AM
 
19,869 posts, read 13,057,963 times
Reputation: 13659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly Q. Bobalink View Post
First, I agree with every other poster who stated that this was a terrible loss on so many levels - religious, architectural, historical, social, national, etc..

But that's where my sympathy ends, and anger takes over: You "own" an 800 year old treasure like this, and you don't protect it from fire, especially during restoration? How much would it have cost to retrofit the attic space (and even the outer roof) with a sprinkler system? With all of that scaffold in place, a couple of charged hoses were not available for use by the construction crew? We used to mandate in "my" building that any roof repair crews had at least one extinguisher with them any time hot work was done on our built-up roof. So now the lack of spending thousands beforehand, will cost several hundred million dollars to fix. What's the French word for "idiot"? I would advise the French citizenry to check whether the Louvre and other treasures are adequately protected.

If someone cites cost as a reason not to have protected Notre Dame, I read that over 30,000 people per day visited this cathedral. Admission is charged only to climb the towers, but if some very small amount were charged to cross onto the island (say, a buck a head), the building could have been protected, and any deterioration could have been repaired years ago, many times over. This is a failure of the government, pure and simple, in not protecting a national treasure.
Île de la Cité is part of Paris. Not only is Notre Dame located on the island but also government offices, private residences, and a hospital among other things. You cannot charge residents, employees of businesses and or government, much less tourists to cross and or enter onto the island for numerous reasons. One primary is that thanks to two bridges people often merely are using the Ile de la Cite to get from Left Bank to Right and vice versa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele_de_la_Cit%C3%A9


Also for your information Notre Dame was undergoing a major restoration project at the time fire began. While yes, the 800 some odd year old church is a tourist attraction and so forth; the French government has a surplus of religious houses of worship, palaces and other "old" buildings all requiring funding.


Le Chateau Versailles sees far more tourists visitors per year than Notre Dame, and is also home to French government. That pile of stone is badly in need of a restoration that will cost an estimated 500 million Euros. The "Grand Versailles" project | Palace of Versailles


France has been trying to raise the 160 or so million Euros for much needed restoration/repair work on Notre Dame, but like all governments there are limits to their purse. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/n...r-fire-n994916
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Old Yesterday, 04:30 AM
 
467 posts, read 135,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Île de la Cité is part of Paris. Not only is Notre Dame located on the island but also government offices, private residences, and a hospital among other things. You cannot charge residents, employees of businesses and or government, much less tourists to cross and or enter onto the island for numerous reasons. One primary is that thanks to two bridges people often merely are using the Ile de la Cite to get from Left Bank to Right and vice versa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele_de_la_Cit%C3%A9

Also for your information Notre Dame was undergoing a major restoration project at the time fire began. While yes, the 800 some odd year old church is a tourist attraction and so forth; the French government has a surplus of religious houses of worship, palaces and other "old" buildings all requiring funding.

Le Chateau Versailles sees far more tourists visitors per year than Notre Dame, and is also home to French government. That pile of stone is badly in need of a restoration that will cost an estimated 500 million Euros. The "Grand Versailles" project | Palace of Versailles

France has been trying to raise the 160 or so million Euros for much needed restoration/repair work on Notre Dame, but like all governments there are limits to their purse. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/n...r-fire-n994916
Thanks for the good information, but my points remain:
Stewardship of the cathedral was not managed properly. If this fire is not the responsibility of the people in charge of it, then whose? Damage from an earthquake would be (almost) unavoidable, but fire should have been expected, and much more so during renovation work. Were the companies performing the restoration required to have tens of millions of dollars of insurance coverage, as they should have been? If so, I guarantee you that the underwriters would have strict guidelines for fire safety in place before work started. The Architect in charge of the restoration should have been the first person to raise a red flag. If the French Government was so lax in their duty to protect this structure that standard safety protocols were ignored, my sympathy is exhausted.

Point taken on the island being occupied by others. But that could be solved by where you put the turn-styles (you drop fifty cents or a buck to get through - my guess is most visitors would not mind a small fee if they knew 90% of it would go to preserving what they partially made the trip to Paris to see - I believe admission to the museums in Chicago is something like twenty bucks a head now). If I were paying the five grand to travel to and tour Paris, I would expect some of that to go toward protecting the 800 year old architectural treasures I went to see. With (millions?) of tourists per year, my guess is that dollars generated by tourists were diverted into general funds instead of protecting what makes Paris Paris. Obviously, their country, their choices. But for a city that let the Germans march in rather than risk being burned in the process, I would have thought they would have better sense.

I guess we'll see what the final report says, maybe I'm being too harsh too soon. The people sending money to rebuild should be applauded. But personally, I wouldn't give them a dime until some very important questions on the How and Why of the failures involved are answered, people are held accountable, and policies are changed. "C'est la vie" don't cut it.

Last edited by Curly Q. Bobalink; Yesterday at 05:09 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 05:11 AM
 
Location: NJ
10,229 posts, read 20,987,443 times
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I don't see this article linked yet. It says fire alarms were going off but they didn't see any sign of fire, so that would be their 1st mistake I guess.

Devastating Notre Dame blaze was 'likely accidental'

Quote:
Lt. Col.Gabriel Plus, a spokesman for the fire brigade, said internal security officers first heard the fire alarm at 6:20 p.m. (12:20 p.m. ET) and began to evacuate the cathedral, even though they didn't see any sign of fire.
François-Xavier Lochet, a 70-year-old worshiper, said the alarm interrupted a Mass. Lochet said he noticed visitors began to get ushered out but those who had gathered for the service remained and the priest resumed. He said Mass continued until a police officer went up and told the priest, "This is no joke. You've got to get out."
Twenty-three minutes later, the fire alarm rang again, Plus said. That's when the cathedral's security officers noticed the flames.
Firefighters were unable to save the cathedral's 19th century spire, which burned to a blackened shell before toppling as thousands of Parisians who had gathered in the streets watched in horror. Two police officers and a firefighter suffered minor injuries, the brigade said.
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Old Yesterday, 06:12 AM
 
19,869 posts, read 13,057,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
I don't see this article linked yet. It says fire alarms were going off but they didn't see any sign of fire, so that would be their 1st mistake I guess.

Devastating Notre Dame blaze was 'likely accidental'


Other linked articles (including some by Moi, IIRC) do mention fire alarms went off, but after early investigations no one could see/find any reason.
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Old Yesterday, 06:20 AM
 
19,869 posts, read 13,057,963 times
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More pictures of the damage, and other updated news.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/n...xperts-n995311


Good news is that more than one billion Euros has been donated/pledged for repair so forth of Notre Dame.


Bad news is many experts on restoration/rebuilding of ancient historical buildings are pouring cold water on President Macron's boast that Notre Dame can be rebuilt or whatever in "five years". He wants the cathedral rebuilt in time for when France hosts 2024 Olympics. Experts are saying "no way".


By most expert accounts it will take two or more decades before Notre Dame is totally restored/rebuilt. They point to a cathedral in Cologne, Germany heavily damaged during WWII which now 70 years later is still undergoing work and not finished.


Leaders of the various trade guilds and unions are saying they don't have early enough trained and skilled workers in the crafts needed to rebuild Notre Dame. Persons will have to be found throughout France (and elsewhere) trained and slowly brought online.


Then there is President Marcon's wish to rebuild Notre Dame "exactly" as she was; experts are saying that won't be easy either. For a start there aren't trees in France, Europe or many other parts of the world nearly of type and size of the ones used in 13th century.


All over the world old growth forests have long been chopped down. What are left rapidly are going in places like Brazil and other areas as land is clear cut for farming and cattle grazing.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/n...xperts-n995311
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Old Yesterday, 06:38 AM
 
19,869 posts, read 13,057,963 times
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Notre Dame's magnificent organ survived unharmed. That is good news and in giving thanks to our Lord for no lives lost and damage less than what things could have been.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDqL6pjpjY
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Old Yesterday, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
43,707 posts, read 35,124,105 times
Reputation: 61680
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro View Post
Everybody likes to make fun of Texas and the USA too, so folks should take the French-bashing with a grain of salt. It’s just humor, probably inherited from our Brit friends.

Caveat: Yours truly is 50% German, 25% English, 25% French, so I get to make fun of everybody.
Well, I'm basically English, Scottish and German so I fight myself all the time. Plus I live in Texas so I get to fight everyone else too!

Why is the Champs Elysees lined with trees? Oh, my bad. I won't say it.


Why did the chicken cross the road?




(To prove to the armadillo it could be done.) I will say that.

Anyway, mostly good news came out after the flames were extinguished so I was glad to read all that. Especially about the relics, the windows, the statues on top, and the organ. I am not sure what paintings were in the cathedral but I am less optimistic about those.
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