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Old Yesterday, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Oregon Coast
5,553 posts, read 2,243,781 times
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I'm still not convinced. What would they expect the crew to say? Yeah, the fire was bad and we wanted to get the hell out of there, as quick as possible? Of course they are going to claim they tried to help the passengers. I want to see the complete timeline. When where the mayday calls made and how long did they try to help the passengers? The two really important questions that need to be asked. 1. Did they even attempt to fight the fire? 2. Why did they leave the burning boat and go to another boat? One report I read said they went to the other boat to call 911. Which is totally ridiculous. They had already made two mayday calls. The Coast Guard was on the way and had broadcast an appeal to all other boats in the area to render assistance. So they did not leave to get help. Help was already on the way. Common sense would dictate not to take the only lifeboat and leave the area, until they were absolutely sure there were no survivors. The fact they had to return to do that is pretty incriminating IMHO.
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Old Yesterday, 10:43 AM
 
21,453 posts, read 17,042,509 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudy Dayz View Post
I'm still not convinced. What would they expect the crew to say? Yeah, the fire was bad and we wanted to get the hell out of there, as quick as possible? Of course they are going to claim they tried to help the passengers. I want to see the complete timeline. When where the mayday calls made and how long did they try to help the passengers? The two really important questions that need to be asked. 1. Did they even attempt to fight the fire? 2. Why did they leave the burning boat and go to another boat? One report I read said they went to the other boat to call 911. Which is totally ridiculous. They had already made two mayday calls. The Coast Guard was on the way and had broadcast an appeal to all other boats in the area to render assistance. So they did not leave to get help. Help was already on the way. Common sense would dictate not to take the only lifeboat and leave the area, until they were absolutely sure there were no survivors. The fact they had to return to do that is pretty incriminating IMHO.
I donít think anyone here expected you to change your mind. Iím not sure itís possible, regardless of subject.
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Old Yesterday, 11:03 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
1,466 posts, read 1,429,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
We would have been at home on the Conception. I have a couple of years total on small boats mostly anchored off Catalina. My daughters dive with reasonable skill. Not a passion with any of them but the middle is a diving machine. She is a well stacked feminine creature. But below 50 feet is her country. She will literally shame the macho young dive masters who think they are good. Do not misunderstand I am not very good and use large bottles or multiple so I do not have to admit I am an air hog. But she can run around on a dive at 60 or 70 feet and still have more than half her air left after an hour.
I always thought the limit on nitrox was 105' or so due to possible o2 toxicity. Most of the nitrox diving I've done is places like Palau where many of the dives you are hooked up in 45' of water.

While the air nazis may disagree, much of the air use is due to the size of your lungs and vascular system. I routinely have 20m or 30 minutes of air when others are heading up, but I'm also a ****ty runner too. My friend had asthma as a kid and seems to have developed monster lungs. He is usually racing to the surface in a half an hour.
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Old Yesterday, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
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Another report from the crew interrogation that no smoke alarms were heard. The investigator from the NTSB observed that the smoke alarms and such were not connected to the bridge. So it sounds like there were no alarms.

That would not seem reasonable for a passenger craft carry up to 40 guest and over night.
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Old Yesterday, 11:54 AM
 
Location: So Ca
16,102 posts, read 15,305,372 times
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...just because it passed muster with the Coast Guard does not mean the Conception was as safe as it could be, according to some naval design and safety experts who have raised concerns about the placement of the escape routes from the bunk room.

John McDevitt, a former assistant fire chief from Pennsylvania who is an accredited marine surveyor and the chair of a National Fire Protection Assn. committee on commercial and pleasure boat fire protection, called the Conception “a compliant fire trap.”

“What bothers me is that the vessel was inspected by a Coast Guardsman within the last 12 months,” said McDevitt, who thinks the design of emergency exits was problematic. “This boat has been checked by the Coast Guard for 40 years almost.”

The Conception was one of three “live-aboard” dive boats operated out of Santa Barbara Harbor by Truth Aquatics Inc., which has been in business since 1974 and is now owned by Glenn Fritzler. He declined The Times’ requests for an interview, but has defended his crew members’ actions in trying to save the doomed passengers.

Fritzler said in a statement that he is working with National Transportation Safety Board investigators and is “committed to finding accurate answers as quickly as possible.” He also said he and his family are “utterly crushed” by the accident.

“My family and I are speaking today with extremely heavy hearts,” he said. “No words will ease the pain that loved ones are feeling. We extend our deepest condolences to all those involved in this horrific tragedy.”

The Conception was built in Long Beach in 1981, designed by its original owner and the company’s long-retired founder, Roy Hauser, specifically for multiday dive trips.

“I designed the entire layout of the vessel,” Hauser said. “I drew it out a quarter inch to the foot and then gave it to a marine architect. They put together the final Coast Guard papers, if you will. Glenn has all the plans and they are all stamped ‘approved.’ … Everything you do has to be approved by the Coast Guard.”

Hauser said Fritzler had kept the boat in “immaculate” condition and he defended its design characteristics as “absolutely” safe. He noted that many of its features are common to California dive and fishing boats, an assertion backed by others in the industry.

Ken Kurtis, a veteran California diver and instructor whose Reef Seekers Dive Co. has organized trips since 1988, said he’d been aboard the Conception many times.

He described its three-level design as very similar to other such boats: sleeping quarters below deck, a main deck that includes a covered galley toward the bow with open-air dive area at the stern, and the wheelhouse with the captain’s controls at the top.

Kurtis said there was nothing extraordinary about the 75-foot boat’s combination of double- and triple-stacked bunks, or its passenger limit of 46 — the count was 12 below that capacity when the fire broke out.

“Passenger loads vary by the size of the vessel,” he said. “They had on this one 33 passengers. That’s a normal number for a dive boat. Most of the big dive boats are 30 to 35 and they are all designed pretty much the same way, with the bunks at the bottom, the galley and salon in the middle and the wheelhouse on top.”

Chris Barry, chair of the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers’ small craft technical and research committee, agreed that the Conception’s structure and cramped sleeping quarters were not unusual.

Some California divers have dubbed the popular configuration a “cattle boat” style of excursion, because of the tight space and lack of staterooms and other cabin amenities.

“The people who are on these dive boats are just crashing below,” Barry said. “These aren’t luxury staterooms. All they want to do is crash and sleep — they don’t need a lot of luxury and there’s obviously a trade-off between the amount of space per person and the cost.”

The crowded quarters might “look a little rough” but they are “absolutely legal,” he said, noting that sailors on Coast Guard cutters also sleep in three-high bunks.“There’s nothing that unusual about the vessel,” he said.

The fact that no passengers below deck escaped has focused attention on the bunk room’s exits. The stairs in the sleeping quarters led to the galley. The escape hatch over bunks in the rear of the room opened up into a dining area adjacent to the galley and just a few feet from the open-air dive deck.

Officials have said fire blocked both exits.

“I definitely have concerns about the ability of those passengers being able to evacuate during a fire,” NTSB Commissioner Jennifer Homendy, who is leading the board’s investigation, told The Times this week.

Homendy said she was “taken aback” by the size and location of the emergency hatch when she toured the Conception’s sister ship the Vision, which has a nearly identical design.

“You have to climb up a ladder and across the top bunk and then push a wooden door up,” she said. “It was a tight space. ... It surprised me how small it was and how difficult it was to access.”

The vessel appears to meet current federal regulations, which require boats such as the Conception to have “at least two means of escape,” including stairways and emergency hatches.

“The two required means of escape must be widely separated and, if possible, at opposite ends of the space to minimize the possibility of one incident blocking both escapes,” the regulation states, noting also that exits must be “sufficient for rapid evacuation in an emergency.”

It’s not clear if passengers ever had a chance to try to escape. Santa Barbara County Sheriff Bill Brown, who is also the coroner, said smoke inhalation is the likely cause of death.

Still, McDevitt, the marine surveyor who also is a Coast Guard-certified captain, said that the design of the boat was flawed. He questioned why both egress points — the stairwell and the hatch — deposited passengers into the galley and adjacent dining area.

“When you put two exits into the same common area, you are not providing two means of egress — it’s still only one,” he said. “You are exiting into the galley and common area.”

He said that irrespective of the minimum standards, the volume of passengers seemed to call for more exit passages.

McDevitt suggested adding “another hatch, and maybe a bigger hatch,” but noted that options would be limited on a boat of that age.

“You don’t want to make a boat less seaworthy, so you can’t put hatches in the side,” he said. “If they built that boat today, they could do more …. When you put people down there in that dungeon, it’s got to be watertight.”

Paul Kamen, a forensic naval architect and mechanical engineer based in Berkeley, said he thought the size of the roughly 2-feet-square escape hatch was adequate, but he also questioned placing both points of exit in the galley and nearby dining area.

Kamen had no problem with the boat’s passenger capacity...He said he is more intrigued by the fire’s rapid growth.

“The big mystery is why the fire propagated so far and so fast,” Kamen said. “I don’t think the fact that wood furnishings in the passenger cabin really explain it.”


https://www.latimes.com/california/s...at-fire-design
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Old Yesterday, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Oregon Coast
5,553 posts, read 2,243,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
I donít think anyone here expected you to change your mind. Iím not sure itís possible, regardless of subject.
I guess that means you don't have any good answer to the question why they didn't stay near the boat and look for survivors. Could they have saved the passengers? Maybe, maybe not. We will never know, because they didn't even try. They just ran away from it.
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Old Yesterday, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
13,339 posts, read 5,106,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudy Dayz View Post
I guess that means you don't have any good answer to the question why they didn't stay near the boat and look for survivors. Could they have saved the passengers? Maybe, maybe not. We will never know, because they didn't even try. They just ran away from it.
They had a guy with a broken leg. And if it was a typical shore dinghy they would be full up with 5 on board. So they dumped the injured and a couple more and came back to look for survivors.

And they would have been aware that there was nothing they could do for the divers. I doubt they could even get close enough to consider boarding the boat,

I would expect it was virtually impossible to actual approach close to the boat. That was a really hot fire going.
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Old Yesterday, 12:45 PM
 
Location: NJ
10,956 posts, read 21,608,279 times
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I honestly can't see them not trying to rescue the others; especially since one crew members girl friend was sleeping below as well as another crew member unless they're the same person it's 2 people they didn't want to leave there.
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Old Yesterday, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Oregon Coast
5,553 posts, read 2,243,781 times
Reputation: 7294
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
They had a guy with a broken leg. And if it was a typical shore dinghy they would be full up with 5 on board. So they dumped the injured and a couple more and came back to look for survivors.

And they would have been aware that there was nothing they could do for the divers. I doubt they could even get close enough to consider boarding the boat,

I would expect it was virtually impossible to actual approach close to the boat. That was a really hot fire going.
You still don't abandoned ship and leave the area without looking for survivors. They returned only after the Coast Guard told them to. Something is fishy about the whole thing.
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
13,339 posts, read 5,106,731 times
Reputation: 5915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudy Dayz View Post
You still don't abandoned ship and leave the area without looking for survivors. They returned only after the Coast Guard told them to. Something is fishy about the whole thing.
Of course you do. It appears clear they attempted to find a way to get to the passengers via the rear door between the salon and the dive deck But they were driven off by the heat. The Captain apparently stayed on the bridge from where he made the "can't breathe" comment to the CG. When he bailed from the boat the other crew though he was on fire as he had a contrail.
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