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Old Yesterday, 12:16 PM
 
10,879 posts, read 4,409,442 times
Reputation: 27467

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giesela View Post
Got a son in this predicament or something?

ClaraC - you don't understand why we disagree but what is the difference btw being passed out and raped and under anesthisia and raped? One deserves it for beomg a woman who parties?
If you don't know the difference, I'll tell you. And I'm only referencing this one case, not a case where a man is at a party and learns a woman is in the next room passed out cold. In this comparison, I'm referring to the Chanel Miller case.

1. A woman develops a dental condition that is extensive enough that treatment will require her to be given anesthesia, or at least "twilight" medication. She undergoes the procedure, pays her bill and leaves, noticing later that it appears to her that she had sex of some kind that afternoon. She goes in to the ER and asks for an exam, and it was determined that the dentist who was alone in the room raped her during her procedure.

2. A woman who is visiting her family at Christmas discovers her younger college age sister is going to a frat party that evening. She's bored, and states her intention to go get completely wasted. While she was at the party, she did just that and also struck up a relationship with a younger college age man she had never met before, kisses him on several occasions, and accepts his invitation to go back to his dorm room. She's staggering drunk, as is he. Somewhere along the way to the dorm room, they are on the ground groping each other, and after a few minutes of being on the ground, she passes out, and he continues to finger her, likely not noticing she's passed out. Two bicyclists come by, witness this scene, and chase him down. We know the rest of the story.

Are you still going to try to state those two situations are the same?

If so, I'm done discussing this with you because there's really not much to say.
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Old Yesterday, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Albany, NY
193 posts, read 109,302 times
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Oh I don't know....The idea that both women were unconscious and not able to consent or "play along" would constitute a rape in my book. And how would a conscious guy not know that his victim is not passed out? Give me a break.
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Old Yesterday, 01:05 PM
 
10,879 posts, read 4,409,442 times
Reputation: 27467
Quote:
Originally Posted by delhidi View Post
Oh I don't know....The idea that both women were unconscious and not able to consent or "play along" would constitute a rape in my book. And how would a conscious guy not know that his victim is not passed out? Give me a break.
I've certainly heard of women who don't move at all during sex, which to me, is bizarre. But apparently, it happens.

Frequently enough that men comment on it happening. And women say stuff like, "he said he wanted me to move during sex".

It seems to me that if he were trying to have sex with her, he would have done that. He wasn't. He was apparently trying to pleasure her, which is not really something that many men seem to do who are intent on assaulting a woman they know to be unconscious. How many cases where men drug a woman, and then try to pleasure her when he knows she's passed out do you typically hear of? None, in my observation.
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Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Albany, NY
193 posts, read 109,302 times
Reputation: 439
What part of sexual assault you don't understand? Penetration is not a prerequisite.

Last edited by delhidi; Yesterday at 01:46 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old Yesterday, 01:42 PM
 
10,879 posts, read 4,409,442 times
Reputation: 27467
Quote:
Originally Posted by delhidi View Post
What part of sexual assault you don't understand? Penetration is not a perquisite.
So let's think this all the way through.

Do you really want to live in a society where, if you choose to get drunk and have sex, your partner is now a felon?

Speaking only for myself, no.

I've certainly done that, in my younger days. In my case, I've never had sex with someone I didn't know, but that was my own choice.
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Old Yesterday, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Central Illinois -
21,969 posts, read 14,584,132 times
Reputation: 15139
Cha Ching!
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Old Yesterday, 01:54 PM
 
479 posts, read 105,725 times
Reputation: 447
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I've certainly heard of women who don't move at all during sex, which to me, is bizarre. But apparently, it happens.

Frequently enough that men comment on it happening. And women say stuff like, "he said he wanted me to move during sex".

It seems to me that if he were trying to have sex with her, he would have done that. He wasn't. He was apparently trying to pleasure her, which is not really something that many men seem to do who are intent on assaulting a woman they know to be unconscious. How many cases where men drug a woman, and then try to pleasure her when he knows she's passed out do you typically hear of? None, in my observation.
Exactly. Why would he finger her if she was unconscious? And the witnesses who said she was unconscious were discredited - they said they saw him having intercourse with her. But the forensic exam proved that didn't happen. If they couldn't see that hue had his pants on how could they see that she was unconscious? They couldn't. And there are records- even a voicemail recording- of her phone calls from just a few minutes before she was found. There is plenty of reasonable doubt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Giesela View Post
Got a son in this predicament or something?
I care about civil liberties and human rights.
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Old Yesterday, 02:12 PM
 
Location: California
1,663 posts, read 478,237 times
Reputation: 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
It was a weird case, the "rape" was fingers only and the sentence was a few months in jail, kicked out of school and sex offender for life.

Iíll have to read up on the case again as donít recall everything. I thought it was full penetration and she was unconscious. It seems there was more than one version of the story.
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Old Yesterday, 02:16 PM
 
Location: California
1,663 posts, read 478,237 times
Reputation: 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by delhidi View Post
What part of sexual assault you don't understand? Penetration is not a prerequisite.
This is true also. Iím first reading the rest of the comments here. Even if fingers only she was assaulted and he shouldnít have done anything. But then again it looks like the arguments being made from his side was that since she was drunk it was open season and heís not responsible for anything and he was drunk too apparently.
We donít want to back to that.
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Old Yesterday, 02:40 PM
 
Location: California
1,663 posts, read 478,237 times
Reputation: 2984
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I feel very ambivalent. I think we're on a VERY slippery slope when we make men criminally responsible for bad decisions women make. When one of the partners in a sex act passes out because he/she has knowingly gotten him/herself drunk, the other partner in the sex act should not suddenly become a felon. And that's what happened here, in my opinion.

Men also make horrible decisions they greatly regret when they are drunk. This is such a common story. A man goes into a strip bar (or a hotel bar, on a business trip), gets completely loaded and then later greatly regrets a sex act with a sex worker that he may or may not have had. He has vague memories of a possible sex act, and symptoms of an STD. And now he has to go home to his wife or girlfriend and he doesn't know what to do - tell her, or don't tell her? And in that case, no one - no one - has any empathy for the man's position although it's the exact same position, in mirror reverse, of this woman's position. Minus, of course, the two bicyclists riding by and witnessing what happened and rescuing her in the most humiliating position she's maybe ever been in.

In my opinion, what happened to her was a "teachable moment" as they say, and not a crime on anyone's part. She passed out during a sex act and he didn't notice. It was not a shining hour for either of them, how terribly vulgar, but we have decided to infanticize women and decide they can't consent to getting themselves drunk and consent to drunk sex.

I am rather surprised at your view on this as usually you are very supportive to victims. You are right it is a very slippery slope though as this view puts all the blame on the woman. So her being drunk means he could do whatever he liked? This means that no man will ever be responsible for their own behavior if the woman is drunk or incapacitated in some way.
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