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Old Yesterday, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
24,157 posts, read 10,930,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
I don't think they can impose a fine unless there was something posted that says that violators of the rules are subject to fines.
No. Whatever the law says -- not a sign -- is what the consequences may be.
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Old Yesterday, 11:33 AM
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
13,054 posts, read 6,719,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
To make the point that you need to follow the law.
Seems like overkill and a waste of resources for an already cash-strapped agency.
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Old Yesterday, 11:46 AM
 
21,629 posts, read 17,152,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
To make the point that you need to follow the law.

Most people wouldn't even know by the time they were fined. If kids getting tossed by bison and multiple people falling off the Grand Canyon don't deter people from breaking rules, I hardly think prosecuting these two will have much affect. People put way more stock in punishments as deterrents than history warrants.
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Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM
 
Location: on the wind
7,887 posts, read 3,346,799 times
Reputation: 26772
Parks (as well as other domestic agencies) use codified regulations as their authority to "manage" actions they take and actions the public takes while being involved with them. The Federal Code of Regulations (CFR) IS a step down from public law. When you violate a codified regulation you are breaking federal law.

The CFR is again stepped down to each park in what is called a "Compendium", but they are based on permanent federal regulations which are authorized by permanent laws. These park Compendiums list what is or is not permitted in that park. Areas that the public can't enter would be laid out in the Compendium. Prohibitions on anything like feeding bears, driving a car off a designated road, harassing wildlife, dumping trash, vandalism, walking in closed areas, etc. They are reviewed and updated periodically...some as often as once a year. The Compendiums are federal actions so they are all subject to public review and comment before being approved.

Complex topic, but basically there doesn't need to be a separate law for each potential violation. The method by which violations and pertinent fines are assessed is described as well. The magnitude of a fine isn't always the same for every violation; its usually expressed as a range. The details of each specific situation can affect it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_o...al_Regulations

An example of a park Compendium

https://home.nps.gov/gate/learn/mana...v8June2018.pdf
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Old Yesterday, 02:03 PM
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
13,054 posts, read 6,719,431 times
Reputation: 12649
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
Most people wouldn't even know by the time they were fined. If kids getting tossed by bison and multiple people falling off the Grand Canyon don't deter people from breaking rules, I hardly think prosecuting these two will have much affect. People put way more stock in punishments as deterrents than history warrants.
Exactly. Its one thing if you catch people on the spot doing stupid stuff (in that case, you have an obligation to not turn a blind eye toward lawbreaking committed in front of you). Trying to go after stupid people where there are no victims after the fact isn't going to have a deterrent effect. Note, fining someone on the spot probably won't have much of a deterrent effect either, but this approach even makes more sense for the reason I outlined above.
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Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
22,832 posts, read 14,945,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Exactly. Its one thing if you catch people on the spot doing stupid stuff (in that case, you have an obligation to not turn a blind eye toward lawbreaking committed in front of you). Trying to go after stupid people where there are no victims after the fact isn't going to have a deterrent effect. Note, fining someone on the spot probably won't have much of a deterrent effect either, but this approach even makes more sense for the reason I outlined above.
If they have broken the law, they should be punished with a fine. The “victim” in this case is the National Park which is owned by all of us.
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Old Yesterday, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Åsgårdsreien
1,149 posts, read 274,781 times
Reputation: 4157
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
That's not going to deter loons like these two who want to break the rules.
You obviously fail to understand the basic concept of deterrence.

No penalties deter everyone. Laws against homicide don't deter everyone, but we don't decline to prosecute people on the laughable idea that some people won't be deterred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Seems like overkill and a waste of resources for an already cash-strapped agency.
What? You actually think the National Park Service has its own prosecutors and courts?

There aren't enough 's in the world for that!

They're being prosecuted under federal law. By federal prosecutors. In federal courts.

Oh-- and if you can't comprehend that sending the message WE DON'T PROSECUTE WHEN YOU VIOLATE PARK RULES will ultimately result in financial repercussions for parks, then I guess there's just no getting through to you.
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Old Yesterday, 04:18 PM
 
Location: on the wind
7,887 posts, read 3,346,799 times
Reputation: 26772
Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
If they have broken the law, they should be punished with a fine. The “victim” in this case is the National Park which is owned by all of us.
Not quite. The National Park isn't the ultimate victim of this crime. The American people are. The citizenry gave the National Park Service the authority to hold a specific unique place in trust for them, not vice versa. Regulations and laws are the tools the NPS uses to carry out those trust responsibilities. The "victim" is the American people, present and future. Yes, ironically, even those loons doing the damage are "victims" of their own stupidity; unless they happen to be foreigners.
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Old Yesterday, 06:08 PM
 
21,629 posts, read 17,152,740 times
Reputation: 40304
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
You obviously fail to understand the basic concept of deterrence.

No penalties deter everyone. Laws against homicide don't deter everyone, but we don't decline to prosecute people on the laughable idea that some people won't be deterred.



What? You actually think the National Park Service has its own prosecutors and courts?

There aren't enough 's in the world for that!

They're being prosecuted under federal law. By federal prosecutors. In federal courts.

Oh-- and if you can't comprehend that sending the message WE DON'T PROSECUTE WHEN YOU VIOLATE PARK RULES will ultimately result in financial repercussions for parks, then I guess there's just no getting through to you.

The vast majority of people are never even going to know if these two are fined.
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Old Today, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
22,832 posts, read 14,945,483 times
Reputation: 32760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parnassia View Post
Not quite. The National Park isn't the ultimate victim of this crime. The American people are. The citizenry gave the National Park Service the authority to hold a specific unique place in trust for them, not vice versa. Regulations and laws are the tools the NPS uses to carry out those trust responsibilities. The "victim" is the American people, present and future. Yes, ironically, even those loons doing the damage are "victims" of their own stupidity; unless they happen to be foreigners.
I don't disagree. You are saying that the owner of the property--taxpayers-- is the victim.

But in a sense, the national park is "victimized," at least in my opinion.
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