From Iowa - Dallas or Minnesota for law school? (Crane: lawyers, unemployed)

[nrogers1122]

I've decided that I'll be staying with UMN, for all of the following reasons in no particular order.
a) close to home - good when you need a sitter for the weekend, or during hollidays.

b) higher ranked

c) higher median starting salary - to those who trash USNWR: I find your analysis to be unsupported. USNWR is not a tabloid, and I doubt that either it or the ABA would tolerate lies from law schools, which I still believe to be honorable institutions. The majority of the posts I've read on the legals "tabloid" sites are pessimistic. I would compare BIGLAW to BIGCORP, which I have worked for since I was 19 (& a night student). I can't stand these kids that come straight out of law school or undergrad and look for the ideal workplace and then get all whiney when they see reality. Its a game, folks. Get over it and realize that if you don't play it you'll go nowhere quickly. It seems like a lot of those who post the responses on the "tabloid" are those that can't handle this concept. I look forward to seeing these types sputter and crash in 2014. I will eagerly fill their vaccancies should those vaccancies be rewarding enough. Also, GetMeOuttaHere, The 21 year olds straight out of undergrad may have plans, but compared to myself if we are equally class ranked (which is what I meant when I said " . . . class rank not considered") don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating usable work experience and maturity in a job interview (that is, if the job is worth a damn).

d) more options upon graduation. To those who use the logic that UMN is worthless in Dallas: Perhaps you are right, and perhaps you are not considering all of the possibilities. You clearly have no idea how most northerners (myself not included) perceive the south, and Texas in particular. Texas and the rest of the sunbelt is a punchline for many (not all) northerners, particularly the liberal ones. Therefore, it is quite likely that the reason you don't see UMN grads down in DFW is because they don't want to go. I keep an open mind and I actually like Texas and the DFW and Austin areas, which is why I applied to SMU. Your point about regional job placement is obvious. Obviously, many of those who go to MN are from the upper midwest, and stay there post grad. MSP is lousy (good) with BIGLAW firms. Additonally, a very large percentage of UMN Law Students are liberals who are interested in public interest or government jobs, slicing the competition for BIGLAW way down. This also partially explains the fact that UMN ranks so low in the NLJ250 placement scoring system offerred in another link from this thread. The University of Minnesota is a national school, and no one will sell me otherwise. I have researched this from USNWR, by speaking to many other lawyers that I hire in the course of my job, and by researching other ancillary websites. Considerring how many law schools are NOT in the top tier, it is a GREAT law school, not merely a GOOD one. The notion that it is not simply because there are very few UMN grads in Texas is absurd. I've had way too much life experience, including a combat Infantry deployment to Afghan (OEF V), navigating through the VA's disability system, 9 years work experience in large corporations, night school, and parenting (4 year olds make convincing fibbers), to have had the wool pulled over my eyes by a law school recruiter. Outside of Texas, SMU is virtually unheard of, except by other Lawyers. Most people when I mention SMU ask me where it is.

SMU is a great school if you want to stay in Dallas. Many others here have said as much. UMN is a great law school if you want to practice in MSP, but it is also acknowledged (although certainly not as revered as the T14) in every other major metropolitan market. UMN has a great placement office & great network of alum placed nationally. For the very few students who do elect to transfer out of state or region, they will do everything possible to put you there. Although I have many options after UMN, I plan to use them only if I severely dislike MSP, which I don't think will be the case (I'm not a snow fan, but I'll tolerate it considering I've lived in DSM, IA my whole life and am therefore quite used to dealing with it effectively).

e) the metro transit system is better in MSP. There are several bus lines that actually drop you off less than 1 block from the law school.

f) UMN accepted me in December. SMU accepted me last Monday. As one poster pointed out, they are likely just offerring me a slot to fill the revenue line on their income statement. I'm not going to tolerate being a 2nd class "fill in the gap" citizen. I'm already going to have to overcome enough "yankee" stereotypes as it is.
---
I'm sure I could think of several more options given a bigger chunk of time, however these are just the ones that come to the top of my mind.

Don't get me wrong. I revere SMU as a great law school. The dossier of graduates who are CEOs in fortune 500 firms, national government, and in the judicial system prove this. The campus looks a lot more beautiful than UMN (which resembles a cave built in the 1970's in some places), and Dallas offers substantial employment opportunities. I wouldn't have applied to SMU if I diddn't find it appealing. I also like the DFW area, and the laid back lifestyle (not to mention the BBQ). Dallas was a major contender and this is a tough choice to make.

I do thank you for all of your candid advice. I look forward to visitng DFW when possible upon graduation, or if possible during Summer when I'm not interning.

[nrogers1122]

Also . . . 2 questions for GetMeOutOfHere - 1) Are you a Lawyer? - if not you have a surprisingly large amount of information about lawyers. 2) Why do you feel that Dallas is "purgatory" and apparently want out so bad?

[getmeoutofhere]

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

c) higher median starting salary - to those who trash USNWR: I find your analysis to be unsupported. USNWR is not a tabloid, and I doubt that either it or the ABA would tolerate lies from law schools, which I still believe to be honorable institutions.

Prepare for a rude awakening. They don't have to lie, just game it a little bit. Sure, the median salary may be higher...among the 40% of the class that actually responded. It's voluntary reporting.

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

The majority of the posts I've read on the legals "tabloid" sites are pessimistic.

There's a reason for that.

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

The University of Minnesota is a national school, and no one will sell me otherwise.

Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

I have researched this from USNWR,

The same people that stand to profit from you believing what they tell you about going to law school? That's your research?

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

by speaking to many other lawyers that I hire in the course of my job, and by researching other ancillary websites. Considerring how many law schools are NOT in the top tier, it is a GREAT law school, not merely a GOOD one. The notion that it is not simply because there are very few UMN grads in Texas is absurd.

It's a fine law school...for its region. Taking a small amount of self-selection out if it, if you try and go outside the Midwest with a UMN degree, you will find it exponentially more difficult to find employment.

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

UMN is a great law school if you want to practice in MSP, but it is also acknowledged (although certainly not as revered as the T14) in every other major metropolitan market. UMN has a great placement office & great network of alum placed nationally. For the very few students who do elect to transfer out of state or region, they will do everything possible to put you there.

Who's telling you that? UMN?






You really need to do a lot more research before you go to law school. You're spouting off the party line from UMN. USNWR is not a valid research source. All your "life experience" doesn't seem to be helping you out much. There is a reason those other sites are pessimistic...top people from top law schools are having trouble finding jobs. If you actually knew anything about the legal market or how law schools work, you'd laugh at yourself for what you want to do with a law degree and how you're going about getting there.

Also, the condescending attitude won't get you very far, either. I'm no big fan of the South, especially of Texas, but your generalizations smack of someone with significantly less life experience than you claim to have.



Looking over your posts, it seems that you really need to completely re-evaluate your reasons for going to law school and taking on a lot of debt. But, it also seems that you made up your mind a long time ago and no one is going to change it.

[getmeoutofhere]

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

Also . . . 2 questions for GetMeOutOfHere - 1) Are you a Lawyer? - if not you have a surprisingly large amount of information about lawyers. 2) Why do you feel that Dallas is "purgatory" and apparently want out so bad?

1) Not yet. Will be soon.

2) You can go back and find a number of threads on the issue if you really want to know.

[SMS_Parent]

Originally Posted by nrogers1122

I've decided that I'll be staying with UMN.

Though I don't agree with some of the conclusions you've reached (based on my experiences as a lawyer at the very kinds of firms you seek to enter), both Minnesota and SMU were good options from the beginning. It isn't unreasonable to decide to stay in the Midwest given the other reasons you've cited. Study hard, be sure your grades are at the very top of your class, and join one of the secondary law reviews if you don't make the top law review and you will have lots of options. Best of luck at UMN. Law school is an exciting intellectual experience.

[nrogers1122]

Originally Posted by SMS_Parent

Though I don't agree with some of the conclusions you've reached (based on my experiences as a lawyer at the very kinds of firms you seek to enter), both Minnesota and SMU were good options from the beginning. It isn't unreasonable to decide to stay in the Midwest given the other reasons you've cited. Study hard, be sure your grades are at the very top of your class, and join one of the secondary law reviews if you don't make the top law review and you will have lots of options. Best of luck at UMN. Law school is an exciting intellectual experience.

Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it. I look forward to joining the legal community. Thanks again for the quality advice within the thread.

[nrogers1122]

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

Prepare for a rude awakening. They don't have to lie, just game it a little bit. Sure, the median salary may be higher...among the 40% of the class that actually responded. It's voluntary reporting.

60% reported to UMN, 89% to SMU. If you are in law school you should have done well enough in undergrad to recall the law of large numbers.

Numbers appear to be accurate for Drake. I know several Drake Law Grads that work with me. Their salary ranges are publicized in the form of a pay grade within the company. Some of these grads worked for firms in town and have divulged their salaries there as well, thus further affirming the USNWR.

Voluntary reporting doesn't = inaccuracy.

Even if the numbers are unreliable they should be so across the board, thus providing a uniform index.

Obviously the numbers are not 100% garaunteed results. They are, however, a good way to find out who does better placing their grads at BIGLAW, which is relevant to me because that is where I want to go.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

There's a reason for that.

Obviously. There is also a reason pessimists don't succeed in life. In Afghanistan, the ones that felt sorry for themselves and moped around got picked to burn the buckets of poop, while the rest of us got to enjoy our downtime.

There is a reason for most things. That doesn't mean that the reason is good or even logical. There is always some element of a converse to pessimism. Law school isn't ice cream and rainbows. I'm not even in it yet and even I understand this. I would imagine that those who can't handle this fact are the ones who get downtrodden and fizzle out.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

Good luck with that.

Thanks. I understand this is your contention, but you have yet to prove this. In fact, most of the lawyers on this board seem to disagree with your analysis.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

The same people that stand to profit from you believing what they tell you about going to law school? That's your research?

Arguement: USNEWS is unreliable.
Evidence: USNEWS profits (minimally - a year subscription costs about 14 bucks) from selling its compilations.
Assumption: Any organization that stands to make a profit will do so dishonestly.

Your assumption is unfounded. I did as you directed and checked some of your other posts. That type of assumption may work in the auto-dealership world, but not for the rest of the world. Of course, there are unscrupulous people in every sector, but this doesn't mean that most businesses run this way (although this the only side the media ever covers - you never hear about the honest business that comprises the majority of the private sector).

Also, you apparently didn't pay attention to the rest of my post which indicated that the USNWR is the not the only source of my research.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

It's a fine law school...for its region. Taking a small amount of self-selection out if it, if you try and go outside the Midwest with a UMN degree, you will find it exponentially more difficult to find employment.

Again, obvious. However, a UMN degree would make it less difficult than say, a Hamline degree, or a St. Thomas degree. Obviously most cities look to the T14 and local law schools first. Also obvious, is that most UMN grads stay local out of choice. My argument, is that UMN CAN place grads nationally. In all likelihood, I will stay in Minneapolis, only relocating after several years of practice. However, should we decide we hate it we aren't limited to MSP. Perhaps you need to do more research about UMN before you make unsupported arguments.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

Who's telling you that? UMN?

Yeah, they sure are. Why do you ask? As are their alumni, at least a dozen of whom I have spoken to, both as reccomended by UMN and as sought out independently. Again, I don't understand why you think that everything positive a law school tells a candidate is a lie. I understand that they have their motivation for wooing students, but do you really think they need to be dishonest to fill their class? This isn't Ave Maria, its a T25 school.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

You really need to do a lot more research before you go to law school. You're spouting off the party line from UMN.

Have you personally heard the party line from UMN? Much of what I say was never utterred by UMN, and is the product of indpendent research.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

USNWR is not a valid research source.

Prove it. I'm not sure by scanning your posts, but it seems that you don't understand how USNWR is supposed to be used. It's not the bible, nor is there any way to get a garauntee about how much you make or that you will pass the bar. USNWR is a compilation of facts. All research has its fallacies, but this seems to be pretty accurate. It serves as an index and a data source. Rankings are subjective.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

Your "life experience" doesn't seem to be helping you out much. There is a reason those other sites are pessimistic...top people from top law schools are having trouble finding jobs. If you actually knew anything about the legal market or how law schools work, you'd laugh at yourself for what you want to do with a law degree and how you're going about getting there. Also, the condescending attitude won't get you very far, either.

And you are calling me condescending? I like how you quoted life experience as if its irrelevant or invalid. I may not have sold cars, but I do have experience hiring lawyers to defend my insureds, negotiating settlments with plaintiff's council before suit is filed, and mediating/arbitrating claims once suit is filed. So yes, I do have insight as to the legal market. In addition to my friends who have graduated Drake, I have engaged in conversation with other attorneys in Des Moines and around the nation regarding the job market and law school. Its tough, I get it. But that's why I endeavored to get into a good law school.

Also, I discussed my business plan, not the entirity of what I plan to do with a law degree. You make a lot of assumptions. I hope you shake that habit before you graduate.

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

I'm no big fan of the South, especially of Texas, but your generalizations smack of someone with significantly less life experience than you claim to have.

And your generalizations smack of someone who went into law school with false expectations and without doing any research whatsoever, and now feels sorry for themselves because you realize the reality of life. I don't appreciate your calling me a liar. You have no basis for doing so. Why would anyone need to lie on this post? What advantage would that give anyone?

Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere

Looking over your posts, it seems that you really need to completely re-evaluate your reasons for going to law school and taking on a lot of debt. But, it also seems that you made up your mind a long time ago and no one is going to change it.

Yeah, buddy, that's right. I made up my mind a long time ago which is why I started this thread. Also, I didn't at all think twice before volunteering to rake in a huge debt.

"Mean and Surley" won't get you very far in any profesisonal setting. There's a reason why people call attorneys "counsel". You seem to lack the ability to listen and reason based upon evidence and not assumptions. I also question why you are going to a law school in "purgatory" Dallas if you want to move to VT or the Pacific Northwest, considerring your rhetoric on this thread, this should be nearly impossible.

I wish you good luck with your legal career. I have a feeling you're going to need it.

[getmeoutofhere]

You keep believing whatever you like. As you stated, you believe what you believe and no one will change your mind.


Though it does my heart good to know I will be competing against people like you for jobs. It will make my life much easier.

[catluvr]

One overall problem I have with lawyers is they are screwing up the US. Look where the oil spill has gotten us...lawyers, loopholes and corruption go hand in hand!

You will NOT be happy here in Dallas and the U of M is one of the best schools with one of the best reputations around. As one formerly from that area, I agree hands down that U of M rocks.

Texans (I love them) have large egos...however nothing is more inflated than a Texas lawyer (I have worked with a few of them and they are very "nice"...at least to my face; however always a bit eccentric).

I hate MN politics and was glad to leave. However, TX politics has it's own set of problems. There is no perfect place, however for law school, U of M is best.

Good luck and if you have any bit of soul...you will consider another profession.

[Lakewooder]

"You clearly have no idea how most northerners (myself not included) perceive the south, and Texas in particular" - well a lot of folks here have ideas about Minnesota (the general public not SMU types) - but you also have to remember that the rest of the country also may have such ideas. We are all 'flyover country' to some.