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Old 06-19-2010, 09:42 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,143 times
Reputation: 19

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I'm a UMN Law student and, to give you the short version, everything that Sanchez and getmeoutofhere have said is true. I would not recommend matriculating to UMN, or for that matter going to law school at all unless you manage to get into a top-6 school without paying sticker price.

I'm glad you're able to swallow the school's explanation for everything and are happy to believe them that everything will be fine when you graduate in 2013. If that's all it takes to relieve you of $100,000, please PM me. I may have some other exciting investment opportunities for you.

Nowhere near 20% of students are getting biglaw jobs. OCI last year was a massacre, and in particular, non-Minnesota firms cancelled and did not come. As out-of-state firms are already under-represented at OCI, the chances of landing a job outside of the state are thus worse. I interned at a local court over the summer and got a chance to meet a lot of summer associates from the big firms in town, who came in with their supervising attorneys to get some "face time" in court during pro-bono crap. These summers are all local kids who went to better schools out of state, but are coming back here to work. In other words, local big firms are much happier to take UChicago students with MN ties than to go for MN grads.

MN does not place well nationally. Compared to other schools of its rank, it does quite poorly in national placement. Come here if you want to practice in MN, and are willing to compete with 1,000 law grads being pumped into the local market every year by local schools.

The career services office is understaffed and is a joke by any stretch of the imagination. They exist mainly to coordinate OCI and will not get you a job. Few of them are or were ever lawyers, and they do not have "connections" that will get you a position out of state. The current head of the office is particularly ill-suited to his job and has no connections to anyone.

"This isn't Ave Maria, it's a top 25 school." Big deal...it's also a top 25 school that graduated its 2010 class with only 35% employed in any capacity...in or outside of the law.

What other things got thrown out there? Work/life experience, big deal, everyone has it, there are plenty of older students with great yarns to spin during interviews and who can appear mature. Won't save you. Plan to study really hard and hope you do well...also something everyone does, probably won't save you as plenty of people who are in the top 25% of the class and on law review are unemployed.

"Law grads in Tier 1 are having relatively little trouble finding work TODAY." Blatantly false, uninformed *rips out my hair*. Do you listen to the radio, read the newspaper, or follow legal-industry blogs? Outside of the top 14, unemployment is like half the class, or worse, in T1 schools. Today. Inside the T14, plenty of graduates aren't finding jobs. (See: Georgetown, Northwestern, etc.)

tl;dr, Your chances of biglaw coming out of UMN are not "great," saying the economy will turn around and be all better by 2013 is like saying you can predit tonight's Powerball numbers, etc. etc. What else can I throw in here...the admissions staff are shills trying to placate you to get you to matriculate, UMN also manipulates and cooks the books on employment data, so please don't rely on that...

OP seems to have a retort and a law school or USNews-supplied piece of "evidence" to counteract all of these testimonials from actual students and lawyers, though, so I can already forsee him in our new crop of students this fall. Best of luck, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Old 07-04-2010, 11:13 AM
 
252 posts, read 507,551 times
Reputation: 75
Economies are cyclical. That's what IBR is for. You and the others who just graduated are screwed by the times, and that sucks. I feel bad for you. I don't know about what will happen in 2013, but I assume whatever happens will be better than it is now.

To hear what you have to say is depressing, if not frightening. It seems as if law school is a no-win. I still plan to go. My hope is that through strong networking and earning good grades that I will be able to find a niche after graduation. If nothing else I can come back to (current employer) afterwords.

I appreciate the candor, but I'm still going to hope for the best. If it was easy, everyone would do it.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Purgatory (A.K.A. Dallas, Texas)
5,010 posts, read 12,829,447 times
Reputation: 2414
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrogers1122 View Post
Economies are cyclical. That's what IBR is for. You and the others who just graduated are screwed by the times, and that sucks. I feel bad for you. I don't know about what will happen in 2013, but I assume whatever happens will be better than it is now.

To hear what you have to say is depressing, if not frightening. It seems as if law school is a no-win. I still plan to go. My hope is that through strong networking and earning good grades that I will be able to find a niche after graduation. If nothing else I can come back to (current employer) afterwords.

I appreciate the candor, but I'm still going to hope for the best. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems, but blinders on ain't one.
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Old 07-05-2010, 03:47 PM
 
252 posts, read 507,551 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by getmeoutofhere View Post
I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems, but blinders on ain't one.
Oh good lord GMOH. To hear you tell it you would think that it would be impossible to be succesful after law school. Why did you go to law school if it sucks so badly? You really haven't said anything constructive this entire thread. I have seen plenty of disgruntled law students, but I also have seen several who have had relatively successful law school careers and post-grad employment. Don't you have anything positive to say about your law school experience?
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Old 07-05-2010, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Purgatory (A.K.A. Dallas, Texas)
5,010 posts, read 12,829,447 times
Reputation: 2414
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrogers1122 View Post
Oh good lord GMOH. To hear you tell it you would think that it would be impossible to be succesful after law school. Why did you go to law school if it sucks so badly? You really haven't said anything constructive this entire thread. I have seen plenty of disgruntled law students, but I also have seen several who have had relatively successful law school careers and post-grad employment. Don't you have anything positive to say about your law school experience?

I would say something positive if you had any clue about the realities of law school or what you are looking at.

However, you've demonstrated over and over that you aren't looking for advice, merely validation of your own flawed research and thoughts.

Yes, law school can be a wonderful thing, but when I listen to people like you, you have absolutely no clue about what it really entails, job prospects, or how any part of it works.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:40 PM
 
606 posts, read 1,873,580 times
Reputation: 1984
for the short term, medium term, and probably the long term the days of "I am going to be an attorney" are pretty much over

unless you are going into intellectual property rights (in which case your best chance of success would include an engineering or hard science background vs what most pre-law programs offer) or you are going to be a tax attorney (in which case your background would be an accounting or POSSIBLY finance degree and a few years working for one of the "big six" before returning to law school) then your prospects out of law school are marginal at best especially when you look at the time, effort, and debt piled on

will some go to law school, make top grades, and get a great job.....sure

will some go to lesser schools, make decent grades, and still get a decent job....possibly

hell we have a dumb bastard with crappy grades that can't speak without a teleprompter for president....does that mean that all kids from broken homes with poor grades even from a decent set of schools will have much success in life......probably not

so feel free to go to law school, but ignoring the truth of the matter that there are many, many, many well prepared, intelligent. "I want to be a lawyers" out there with an assload of debt and no job prospects from pretty good schools with pretty good grades is also your decision

don't look for others to validate it especially on the internet where some actually try and tell the truth of matters VS fluffing up ones poorly planned ideas
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:47 PM
 
6,585 posts, read 22,409,761 times
Reputation: 3170
Uh-Oh, nrogers - you are going viral:
http://www.qfora.com/jdu/thread.php?threadId=11332 (broken link)
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Purgatory (A.K.A. Dallas, Texas)
5,010 posts, read 12,829,447 times
Reputation: 2414
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarNorthDallas View Post
Uh-Oh, nrogers - you are going viral:
http://www.qfora.com/jdu/thread.php?threadId=11332 (broken link)

That's awesome.
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Old 07-05-2010, 09:57 PM
 
252 posts, read 507,551 times
Reputation: 75
Yeah, I'm not too worried about some website for policy wonks who have nothing better to do than to pick apart some random blog. I have seen many JD's with grammar worse off than mine; both here in and at work. I'm not looking to write a masterpiece.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Michissippi
3,116 posts, read 6,979,122 times
Reputation: 2050
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrogers1122 View Post
I'm from Iowa. I am 28, have a wife and a 4 year old son. I live in Iowa. I will be starting law school in August. I have been accepted to two top law schools; Southern Methodist, and the University of Minnesota.
Neither of these are top law schools. The top law schools are the traditional "top ten" or "top 14" schools. Minnesota is a Top 20-25 school. I'm not sure what SMU's status is.

Quote:
On paper, Minnesota is ranked higher, it costs less, and the job prospects are more lucrative and apparently more plentiful than SMU.
The state of Minnesota has a HUGE oversupply of attorneys and one of the nation's highest attorney-to-population ratios.

I hope that you will do some serious research before you commit yourself to law school and perhaps $100,000-150,000+ of student loan debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. The legal profession is a very glutted, miserable field, and most non-lawyers know nothing about the economic realities of the legal profession (only what they see in Hollywood movies and TV that leads them to mistakenly conclude that all or most lawyers are rich).

Did you know that the law schools have been producing such a huge oversupply of lawyers since 1973 that, if a lawyer wanted to practice for 40 years, there would be enough new lawyers produced to sustain having one lawyer for every 172 people, on average?

Please do your research before you become another victim of the law school scam. I cannot recommend that anyone go to a non-top ten (or non Harvard-Yale-Stanford) law school today unless a family member is guaranteeing them a job or the tuition and living expenses are free. You can start your research here:

Law School Scambusting resources


Here is a copy of what I posted in a thread in the Detroit forum:


Quote:
Originally Posted by itunev329
My daughter is considering going to law school at either Thomas Cooley or University of Detroit Mercy. We are from upstate NY and do not know anything about the two cities. Of course we have heard the negatives on Detroit, but want to keep an open mind. She went to undergrad in Philly and had a fantastic experience there. Anyone want to share their stories about Lansing vs Detroit?
Tell her NOT to go to law school at all, especially not at a Third Tier Toilet (TTT).

Why? Because our nation already has a HUGE oversupply of attorneys, many of whom are unemployed or underemployed. A great many new graduates cannot find jobs in the legal profession and this has been a problem for at least two decades, not just during the recession. If (as reported at the ABA Journal) third year Harvard students are having difficulty securing jobs today, what luck will a graduate from a no-name fourth tier law school have?

Consider the costs--perhaps $25,000/year for tuition plus $15,000/year for living expenses = $120,000 worth of student loan debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy--she could be enslaved to that debt forever!

Please, please advise your daughter to do her research before she goes. Also note that the law school employment stats are misleading and arguably even outright fraudulent. (Recently, the President of the California Bar admitted in a published letter in the bar journal that the law school stats are at best inaccurate.)

Quote:
There is notoriously unreliable self-reporting by law schools and their graduates of employment statistics. They are unreliable in only one direction, since the self-reporting by law schools of “employment” of graduates at graduation and then nine months after graduation are, together, a significant factor in the U.S. News rankings — which are obsessed over, despite denials, by law schools and their constituencies.
California Bar Journal
Here are some blogs and forums that you and your daughter should investigate before making this $120,000+ commitment. Read through a couple months' worth of entries and ask yourself if it's worth $120,000+ of non-dischargeable debt.

Exposing The Law School Scam (http://lawschoolscam.blogspot.com/ - broken link)
Law School Scambusting resources
http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com
Esq. Never
JD Underdog
http://www.qfora.com/jdu/
The Jobless Juris Doctor
But I Did Everything Right!

Here's a good op-ed:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...ench_--_m.html

Here's a profound blog piece written by a law professor--someone who has an interest in having law students--admitting that the law schools are producing too many lawyers. Note that the actual situation is much worse than he suggests:

Balkinization

Note also that almost all pre-laws are very optimistic about their prospects. They all think they'll graduate in the top 10% of their class. (Even students in the top 10% at non-top-20 schools have been having problems finding employment.) If your daughter is looking for something to do with a worthless liberal arts degree, you should advise her to find something else to get a second degree in such as Nursing.

Wasting time and money in law school is not the answer nor will it improve employment prospects over that of a liberal arts degree. If anything earning a JD will result in decreased employment opportunities because she will be rendered overqualified and unemployable in other fields. Since the naive general public believes that all lawyers are successful and rich, non-law employers will regard her as a complete loser for not working in the legal field and they'll also see her as a job-flight risk; they think she'll leave as soon as she finds a law job (not going to happen).

If your daughter has any specific questions or concerns about this please post them here. I also know that some of those bloggers will happily offer personal advice about whether someone should go to law school such as the ladies at the But I Did Everything Right blog.

More food for thought. According to one of the bloggers, the nation currently has 1 lawyer for every 258 people and enough new lawyers are being produced each year so that the number will eventually be 1 for every 165 people. When was the last time you or someone you knew needed a lawyer in a non-business capacity? 1 for every 165 people is far far more than the economy can support.
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