Radiant Barrier

[NRGpro]

It's basic physics and if you don't understand emissivity there are many sites on the web that explain it. lh_newbie: Please understand this term before affecting the other readers in here. And as far as your "trust" in the DOE: Doing a search for "radiant barrier" on Google most likely will bring up the DOE web site on how to install a radiant barrier...incorrectly. The site was written in 1991 and says so in the upper left hand corner. Like any other branch of the US government, it's out of date, inefficient and is full of misinformation. We have been building homes in the desert of Phoenix with no insulaition, only radiant barrier and the results are beyond amazing.

The days of blowing a known carcinogen (fiberglass), into our walls and ceilings is ludicrous at best. First of all, glass is transparent to infrared heat. You don't need a scientist to prove that. Stand behind a window with the sun shining through it. Feel the heat? So, if fiberglass heat is transparent to infrared heat (the largest contributor to heat flow in our homes), how is it supposed to stop it? It doesn't, that's why our summer heating bills double/triple in the summer... IT DOESN'T WORK.
You are way off on ice dams as well and do not understand the relationship between convecive losses and the effects of the infrared heat leaving the top of the insulation during the winter. Blowing in RBS Chips over the top of the insulation in a cold climate has an immediate and profound effect on the heat loss of the home. Heating costs are cut almost in half (savings over 40% are not uncommon), and comfort is impacted immediately. Many expound that the effects can be felt as it's being installed. I do believe I read somewhere in your posts that "radiant barriers are not effective in cold climates"? Tell that to the users in Canada and Michigan that now have lower bills and more comfortable homes.
It's people like you that I meet at home shows that "know it all" and walk up to our booth and see, in real time, the effects of our products in a test cell constructed like an attic and say something profound like: "come on honey, this is BS, the sun does not shine in the attic", there's no way this stuff can work".
Having been inventing, designing, manufacturing and installing radiant barriers since 1986 in both new and existing homes all over the country and the tropics, I can state with confidence what I've experienced is reality. How many homes have you installed radiant barrier in? How many commercial buildings, churches, airplane hangers, chicken farms, vehicles, beer containers, garages, sheds have you witnessed before and after effects in?
Rather than sit behind your monitor and throwing out your "BS" card to what I've discovered and passing on, why not do some more research on the impact of multiple low emissivity surfaces facing each other with an airspace and perhaps understand what Mean Radiant Temperature means before influencing others. I'm not selling anything on here either, just trying to help people make the right decision.

To Galore: As far as the "put a bag of ice in the sun and one in the cooler": Try this: Take one bag and put it in the cooler, take the other bag and wrap it in three layers of aluminum foil. Put both in the sun. See what happens then. You may be surprised.

[lh_newbie]

I'm an expert. Trust me, the sky is green.

I stand by my statements that radiant barriers are good in attics, but you also need insulation. You do realize there are more insulation types than fiberglass, right? Good insulation + radiant barrier + proper ventilation = great for retrofit situations. To say you can simply put a radiant barrier around your home and not need insulation is ludicrous, especially in Dallas. We actually use our furnaces in the winter. Without insulation, that heat will simply escape through your ceiling/walls.

I've had enough of this thread. NGPro - we'll have to agree to disagree.

[NRGpro]

You better tell all my customers on Oahu who do not have any insulation and have been able to turn off their A/C units only by adding my Moderator cut:advertising link product in the attic that they've made a huge mistake. And call ABC news here in Phoenix also and tell them the story they ran last week about a Phoenix couple who added 12" of additional attic insulation to lower their energy bills and increase their comfort was incorrect. Their electric bills went up and their house got hotter. While you're at it, please contact the manufacturers of Thermos bottles who, according to you, (since there is no insulation only radiant barrier), are only effective at keeping heat in not out...oh yeah, NASA too, they must we WAY off base! There is no insulation in space craft, space suits either...only radiant barrier.

Professor Byard Wood at Arizona State University and his graduate students better be contacted by you as well because the two identical homes we built side by side in 1986 that were monitored for a year by them showed the house with no insulation, only radiant barrier in the walls and ceiling consumed 35% less power and was more comfortable...

Oh yes, another group you should contact is the Australian government who is funding homeowners to upgrade their attic insulation or an approved radiant barrier. They've evidently got it all wrong too as most of the homes in Queensland do not have attic insulation and have cut bills by 40% using only our radiant barrier.

I have hard data, university documentation, 23 years of field experience, 11 patents and thousands of customers both online and locally that would love to see a green sky. You can agree on whatever you like, I prefer to believe in facts, data and proof. What do you have? I have proof in your backyard that a radiant barrier sprayed under the roof deck increased usage. The hottest attic I've measured in my 23 years of doing this was in Dallas TX. They had a ridge vent as well which Moderator cut:advertising link

You say you are an "expert". Do you have credentials to prove it? I'm BPI certified, a HERS rater, LEED building adviser and member of the United States Green Building Council. Our Moderator cut:advertising link in the US Virgin islands won "Best New Product" and "Best Services" in '08 and in '09. What do you have?

You know, I believe you believe the sky is green.

[lh_newbie]

Originally Posted by NRGpro

You better tell all my customers on Oahu who do not have any insulation and have been able to turn off their A/C units only by adding my Moderator cut:advertising linkThermal Control Membrane[/url] product in the attic that they've made a huge mistake. And call ABC news here in Phoenix also and tell them the story they ran last week about a Phoenix couple who added 12" of additional attic insulation to lower their energy bills and increase their comfort was incorrect. Their electric bills went up and their house got hotter. While you're at it, please contact the manufacturers of Thermos bottles who, according to you, (since there is no insulation only radiant barrier), are only effective at keeping heat in not out...oh yeah, NASA too, they must we WAY off base! There is no insulation in space craft, space suits either...only radiant barrier.

Professor Byard Wood at Arizona State University and his graduate students better be contacted by you as well because the two identical homes we built side by side in 1986 that were monitored for a year by them showed the house with no insulation, only radiant barrier in the walls and ceiling consumed 35% less power and was more comfortable...

Oh yes, another group you should contact is the Australian government who is funding homeowners to upgrade their attic insulation or an approved radiant barrier. They've evidently got it all wrong too as most of the homes in Queensland do not have attic insulation and have cut bills by 40% using only our radiant barrier.

I have hard data, university documentation, 23 years of field experience, 11 patents and thousands of customers both online and locally that would love to see a green sky. You can agree on whatever you like, I prefer to believe in facts, data and proof. What do you have? I have proof in your backyard that a radiant barrier sprayed under the roof deck increased usage. The hottest attic I've measured in my 23 years of doing this was in Dallas TX. They had a ridge vent as well which Moderator cut:advertising link

You say you are an "expert". Do you have credentials to prove it? I'm BPI certified, a HERS rater, LEED building adviser and member of the United States Green Building Council. Our Moderator cut:advertising link in the US Virgin islands won "Best New Product" and "Best Services" in '08 and in '09. What do you have?

You know, I believe you believe the sky is green.

I can only comment on my experiences in Dallas. We have both hot and cold times of year. Our cooling bills can be every bit as much as our heating bills, so to ignore insulation is ignoring our climate.

We do not have radiant barrier in our attic, but our Southern exposure also has shade. We increased our attic insulation from about 2" to 14-15" and replaced our AC unit with a 16-SEER unit. Our cooling bills are 50% lower and our heating bills are 30% lower.

Would radiant barrier help? Yup. We still get sun on the east/west facing roof surfaces.

Oh, and by the way - might want to check your Thermos comparison. While they do have a radiant barrier, it also uses a vacuum to act as an insulator.

Brian

PS: I may not be an "expert" in your eyes, but I am also not selling anything, so I have no vested interest as you clearly state above.

[Lakewooder]

touché

[loves2read]

touche ditto

[UTDGraduate]

I did research a lot for home insulation technologies on the market.
Most home professional experts I met recommend the Icynene insulation, and I agreed with them after visual verification and validation on the homes built with this technology.

[NRGpro]

DPeter:
Yes, I posted "which way does hot air go up or down". I typed that incorrectly. I was distracted. What I meant to say was "it does not go down" which is what is expected of a ridge vent design. lh_newbie, I'm not "full of myself" or "baiting people". Unless you have first hand experience in your observations or opinions, please don't attack those of us that have stuck our necks out in building science and actually field tested our ideas. We built two identical homes in 1986 side by side, one with R-19 walls (faced fiberglass batts), and R-30 attic (blown fiberglass). one with NO insulation, only radiant barrier. The homes were outfitted with 15 thermocouples installed by graduate students under Dr. Byard Wood at Arizona State University. The RB home used 35% less power, was more comfortable and the run cycles on the heat pumps were much shorter and stayed off longer than the insulation home next door. Further, this test proved conclusively the potential for fiberglass to store and re-emit heat HOURS (until 11pm), after the sun went down. The RB attic matched ambient within 15 minutes. We are installing our Thermal Control Membrane product in homes in Hawaii that do not have any insulation in the attic and the homeowners are now able to turn off the A/C unit and be comfortable. Anybody out there reading this wear a sweater in the summer to keep cool?

[NRGpro]

Sure, I'm selling something, the best radiant barrier products available. Along with that is 25 years of experimentation and lab testing that prove the performance. All of our radiant barrier products have a lifetime performance warranty which is exclusive to my product line. Further, if my customers are not fully satisfied with the performance we offer a full refund policy, another first in this industry. To date we have never had a to refund anyone on their purchase.
I could sell a single layer product at a fraction of the cost of my competitors but when I put my pants on in the morning I feel good about making a difference as opposed to just making a profit.

[lh_newbie]

Originally Posted by NRGpro

DPeter:
Yes, I posted "which way does hot air go up or down". I typed that incorrectly. I was distracted. What I meant to say was "it does not go down" which is what is expected of a ridge vent design. lh_newbie, I'm not "full of myself" or "baiting people". Unless you have first hand experience in your observations or opinions, please don't attack those of us that have stuck our necks out in building science and actually field tested our ideas. We built two identical homes in 1986 side by side, one with R-19 walls (faced fiberglass batts), and R-30 attic (blown fiberglass). one with NO insulation, only radiant barrier. The homes were outfitted with 15 thermocouples installed by graduate students under Dr. Byard Wood at Arizona State University. The RB home used 35% less power, was more comfortable and the run cycles on the heat pumps were much shorter and stayed off longer than the insulation home next door. Further, this test proved conclusively the potential for fiberglass to store and re-emit heat HOURS (until 11pm), after the sun went down. The RB attic matched ambient within 15 minutes. We are installing our Thermal Control Membrane product in homes in Hawaii that do not have any insulation in the attic and the homeowners are now able to turn off the A/C unit and be comfortable. Anybody out there reading this wear a sweater in the summer to keep cool?

I've said this over and over. In Dallas, you have to think about heating and cooling. I've also said that insulation PLUS radiant barriers are good. You're test scenarios don't test this. You try to compare two different technologies and take readings at specific timeframes and try to draw conclusions based on that.

If an attic is hot at 11pm... does that mean the heat worked its way into the home? Nope. It means the attic is hotter.

I grow very tired of this back and forth. You provide absolutely zero proof, only snippets of time slices that provide one point of data and then try to draw conclusions on that.

You say you compared two homes. I have done my home. Adding insulation not only lowered my cooling, but also lowered my heating bills. You discount that as not being proof.

You try to use the thermos example, which is clearly wrong - I called you on the carpet (since the thermos uses exactly what I am a proponent of... both insulation [in this scenario, a vacuum which does not conduct heat] AND a radiant barrier). You ignore this also.

Best of luck to your business, but the anecdotal evidence you use as proof is weak at best. I have 3 years of utility bills and notes on when I added insulation and when we added proper soffit venting. The data is pretty clear, especially so when you normalize the data with heating degree and cooling degree days.

Best of luck to your business, but don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes on a forum in which I live and look out for my neighbors.

Brian