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Old 03-18-2013, 12:45 AM
 
36 posts, read 94,532 times
Reputation: 42

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
You have lame friends.
This does not help in raising the caliber of this conversation. My experiences are not representative and neither are yours although you don't see me calling out your level of maturity or some such. Or maybe I just did :-)

 
Old 03-18-2013, 01:02 AM
 
Location: Texas
44,257 posts, read 64,046,055 times
Reputation: 73913
Quote:
Originally Posted by desidon View Post
This does not help in raising the caliber of this conversation. My experiences are not representative and neither are yours although you don't see me calling out your level of maturity or some such. Or maybe I just did :-)
People who create a reality and then dub that to be the expected reality are simply...lame.

Maturity is irrelevant.

Not interested in people who complain or bemoan any situation they create for themselves.
 
Old 03-18-2013, 09:27 AM
 
Location: North Texas
24,561 posts, read 40,080,953 times
Reputation: 28547
Quote:
Originally Posted by desidon View Post
Am Indian and moved here about 8 months ago after living in NC for 12 years. From my very limited experience so far,I see a lot of self segregation in the Indian community. I have a few Indian friends who have lived in this area for a while and they took me around to parties, every time it is a majority Indian crowd. The only places I have seen white folks mingle with Indians in a social settings are afternoon school based bday parties etc. This is your typical B-school, dual income , mid level executive , mid 30's crowd who have done well for themselves professionally but I am shocked to see their circles to be 100% Indian!
My experience is not representative but I am definitely observing self segregation because the option is there like someone else commented and this has been very different from my experience in NC.

I want my kid to grow up and experience other cultures as opposed to having a majority Indian classmates and majority Indian neighbors. Maybe I have to buy my way into it...private schools and $800k + housing and that may still not guarantee results. Maybe there is more interaction in the communities at schools etc but I am definitely not observing that at the Montessori my 3 year old goes to and am not hopeful of that in a Plano public school setting either.

I definitely like DFW with all its amenities etc but this one point above has be concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
You have lame friends.
The only Indian friends my parents have are from their pujah group.
They see them maybe once a month or so.

All their other friends are white.

If people are segregated, they are doing it to themselves.

My brother and I went to middle school/high school in Plano, and I had no close Indian friends and he had ONE.

Desidon, I have seen what you're describing over and over again. Everywhere I have ever worked or lived in DFW, the Indians have segregated themselves. I worked at a couple of companies with large numbers of Indian employees and they never spoke to us unless it was work-related. They only socialized with other Indians. They only ate lunch with other Indians. Even the couple of exceptions I've known, i.e. Indians who were willing to be at least friendly at work, have nothing but Indian friends outside of work.

Indians self-segregate in DFW because they want to. Nobody's forcing them to do it. The overwhelming majority of them seem to only want to socialize with other Indians. Just look at all the posts we've had over the years here from Indians moving to DFW who want to know where the other Indians are; they usually specify it as a very important criteria in choosing a neighborhood. They want to be with their own kind and they seem to have no interest whatsoever in integrating with Americans or assimilating in any way to our culture.

There are exceptions, obviously...but IMHO Indians self-segregating is definitely the rule. I find it mildly insulting that they don't want to socialize with us at all, but there it is.
 
Old 03-18-2013, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,384 posts, read 25,583,506 times
Reputation: 10580
Quote:
Originally Posted by desidon View Post
Am Indian and moved here about 8 months ago after living in NC for 12 years. From my very limited experience so far,I see a lot of self segregation in the Indian community. I have a few Indian friends who have lived in this area for a while and they took me around to parties, every time it is a majority Indian crowd. The only places I have seen white folks mingle with Indians in a social settings are afternoon school based bday parties etc. This is your typical B-school, dual income , mid level executive , mid 30's crowd who have done well for themselves professionally but I am shocked to see their circles to be 100% Indian!
My experience is not representative but I am definitely observing self segregation because the option is there like someone else commented and this has been very different from my experience in NC.

I want my kid to grow up and experience other cultures as opposed to having a majority Indian classmates and majority Indian neighbors. Maybe I have to buy my way into it...private schools and $800k + housing and that may still not guarantee results. Maybe there is more interaction in the communities at schools etc but I am definitely not observing that at the Montessori my 3 year old goes to and am not hopeful of that in a Plano public school setting either.

I definitely like DFW with all its amenities etc but this one point above has be concerned.
I eco a lot of what BigDGeek says, but Indians do self-segregate big time. Nobody is forcing them to do it, they do it because they want to.

However, this isnt an issue specific to Indians or DFW for that matter. Indians can self-segregate here because the community is so huge. You dont have to venture out of the Indian community in Dallas and the suburbs to the north ever if you dont want. You can eat the same food, do the same activities, socialize with the same people, etc. as you would in India. The Indian community in North Carolina is no where near as large, so self-segregation is not as much of an option there.

If you look at any metropolitan area with a large number of one group, they will self-segregate. Even if they dont self-segregate by ethnicity, they will by income level. I often compare the Indians in Dallas with the Koreans in LA. They dont completely cut themselves off from others, but they do show a huge bias for being only with each other.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 07:32 AM
 
2,206 posts, read 4,720,326 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
Desidon, I have seen what you're describing over and over again. Everywhere I have ever worked or lived in DFW, the Indians have segregated themselves.
I have had to address this problem at work with my Indian managers. The Indian males tend to hire/retain other Indians and they have problems with strong women who do not defer to them. They also cause problems for my Muslim employees. The Caste system also still casts its long shadow as well.

That being said, I do invite all my managers to couple on couple dinners with my wife and then have general parties for them with the kids invited. And they have reciprocated. Since we are the host culture, it is incumbent on us to extend the invitation FIRST.

I think its normal for immigrants to cluster. They feel less adrift in an alien culture. I would certainly do the same thing if I were expating it.

At school, I see a different story. The kids play together and do not care.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 08:15 AM
 
Location: North Texas
24,561 posts, read 40,080,953 times
Reputation: 28547
Quote:
Originally Posted by TX75007 View Post
I have had to address this problem at work with my Indian managers. The Indian males tend to hire/retain other Indians and they have problems with strong women who do not defer to them. They also cause problems for my Muslim employees. The Caste system also still casts its long shadow as well.

That being said, I do invite all my managers to couple on couple dinners with my wife and then have general parties for them with the kids invited. And they have reciprocated. Since we are the host culture, it is incumbent on us to extend the invitation FIRST.

I think its normal for immigrants to cluster. They feel less adrift in an alien culture. I would certainly do the same thing if I were expating it.

At school, I see a different story. The kids play together and do not care.
I stopped trying to befriend Indians a long time ago...for some reason, they don't want to hang out with a single white childless Jew.

You're right about the kids playing together (kids don't care!) and Indians in the workplace, though. I refuse to work for an Indian man again. Not doing it. It's amazing...we have a division in India and sometimes have teleconferences with them. I'm interrupted and talked over by the men, but my boss and other male colleagues get to complete their sentences. Then when I point that out later, they're like..."Huh? I didn't notice that."
 
Old 09-20-2013, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Irving, TX
692 posts, read 848,208 times
Reputation: 1173
I'm in Irving with a very large Indian population, and have to agree on the self-segregation. I have family friends from both northern and southwest India, and so am more familiar with the cultures than the average bird...and many of the Indian folks I meet in Irving just shut me down, point-blank, when I try to interact with them. The ones who don't generally tend to be lower on the skillset/money food chain.

On the bright side, my great-grandfather, who was Sicilian, used to scream bloody murder about all the Italians he knew doing the exact same thing. So I'd assume this works itself out over a generation or two.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Funky town
953 posts, read 1,819,869 times
Reputation: 648
While there are some bad apples, there also some great souls from the community. I am an Indian and 100% agree with many comments here but I don't think those comments tell the full story.

Many Indians self-select by choice, I will agree with that too. However, I will also say it is the classic analogy to "what you buy may not be what you want." Let me explain.

When you are a new immigrant, there are several occasions (even with your own neighbors) where others do not understand accent or relate to your background. Heck! many even don't know cricket. I totally understand it because it is a new land with a different culture (sports, language, etc). So many Indians do take time (and many I know do) to learn the rules of / start to follow and actually enjoy professional football, basketball, etc and learn about cultural aspects (there are several secondary way to know such as "observation"). Granted not every Indian does these but there are several I know who do.

I think it is not too much to ask if hosts can lend some help in assimilating them in the culture. I think you will be shocked to know how many Indians will appreciate it. When I went to graduate school here, it was one of the best experiences that I ever had. I learned so much about the culture from friends I made during my degree program and I now know way more non-Indians than Indians in the US.

So in the absence of assimilation (Indians thinking nobody wants to listen to them because of their accent or locals thinking they cannot relate to the Indian next door) it becomes automatically easier and less work to relate with other Indians. Same for locals. It is as simple as that and not a rocket science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TX75007 View Post
I have had to address this problem at work with my Indian managers. The Indian males tend to hire/retain other Indians and they have problems with strong women who do not defer to them. They also cause problems for my Muslim employees. The Caste system also still casts its long shadow as well.
I have also repeatedly heard about Indian male managers hiring Indian people but I think it is far from truth and comes back to some rotten apples example. I think an argument can very easily be made that a majority has always liked to keep the majority subconsciously. You must be blind not to see most companies boards and C-suite comprised of white males. In many cases, you can put that same argument there and you will be totally wrong. There are some genuine people who are really trying to change their image but most good managers will not take a less capable person for a job just for the sake of diversity. Also, caste? Really? I can guarantee you that every Indian I know does not even talk about caste in any discussion or have any bias whatsoever so please stop stereotyping people into buckets and get to know people for who they really are.

This image of Indian male being what some posters have referred only makes things worst because good Indian male never get the opportunity - classic stereotyping - a very common theme of any discussion related to race, gender, geography, etc. I have had meetings with 4 other women and me. The women were talking about shoes for 30 min. Should I feel offended? C'mon move on... If you feel violated then raise your voice right then and there and not behind the back!
 
Old 09-20-2013, 02:09 PM
 
Location: North Texas
24,561 posts, read 40,080,953 times
Reputation: 28547
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzyrider View Post
While there are some bad apples, there also some great souls from the community. I am an Indian and 100% agree with many comments here but I don't think those comments tell the full story.

Many Indians self-select by choice, I will agree with that too. However, I will also say it is the classic analogy to "what you buy may not be what you want." Let me explain.

When you are a new immigrant, there are several occasions (even with your own neighbors) where others do not understand accent or relate to your background. Heck! many even don't know cricket. I totally understand it because it is a new land with a different culture (sports, language, etc). So many Indians do take time (and many I know do) to learn the rules of / start to follow and actually enjoy professional football, basketball, etc and learn about cultural aspects (there are several secondary way to know such as "observation"). Granted not every Indian does these but there are several I know who do.

I think it is not too much to ask if hosts can lend some help in assimilating them in the culture. I think you will be shocked to know how many Indians will appreciate it. When I went to graduate school here, it was one of the best experiences that I ever had. I learned so much about the culture from friends I made during my degree program and I now know way more non-Indians than Indians in the US.

So in the absence of assimilation (Indians thinking nobody wants to listen to them because of their accent or locals thinking they cannot relate to the Indian next door) it becomes automatically easier and less work to relate with other Indians. Same for locals. It is as simple as that and not a rocket science.

Reach out enough times without success, you eventually stop reaching out. That's all. I don't think it's 100% our responsibility to reach out to them; they, after all, chose to move to this country. They should make more of an effort too.

Quote:
I have also repeatedly heard about Indian male managers hiring Indian people but I think it is far from truth and comes back to some rotten apples example. I think an argument can very easily be made that a majority has always liked to keep the majority subconsciously. You must be blind not to see most companies boards and C-suite comprised of white males. In many cases, you can put that same argument there and you will be totally wrong. There are some genuine people who are really trying to change their image but most good managers will not take a less capable person for a job just for the sake of diversity. Also, caste? Really? I can guarantee you that every Indian I know does not even talk about caste in any discussion or have any bias whatsoever so please stop stereotyping people into buckets and get to know people for who they really are.

This image of Indian male being what some posters have referred only makes things worst because good Indian male never get the opportunity - classic stereotyping - a very common theme of any discussion related to race, gender, geography, etc. I have had meetings with 4 other women and me. The women were talking about shoes for 30 min. Should I feel offended? C'mon move on... If you feel violated then raise your voice right then and there and not behind the back!
I've piped up before and have actually seen meetings degenerate into shouting matches with Indian men who refused to allow a lowly female to talk over them. I don't know much about castes and I don't care, but my point stands about how Indian men are a pain in the ass to work with/for if you are a white American woman. My experiences with them are FAR from unique.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 04:18 PM
 
52 posts, read 289,582 times
Reputation: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDGeek View Post
Reach out enough times without success, you eventually stop reaching out. That's all. I don't think it's 100% our responsibility to reach out to them; they, after all, chose to move to this country. They should make more of an effort too.



I've piped up before and have actually seen meetings degenerate into shouting matches with Indian men who refused to allow a lowly female to talk over them. I don't know much about castes and I don't care, but my point stands about how Indian men are a pain in the ass to work with/for if you are a white American woman. My experiences with them are FAR from unique.
Why do you suppose all of them are immigrants. You said the same thing earlier about them not behaving American. What is American?? That's a very ethnocentric way of thinking which is why racism is still so prevalent in America. Maybe they are trying to preserve their culture. When I go to a certain mall in the SF Bay there is a strong Indian presence and they all wear their traditional garb and I think it is beautiful. SMH. American culture, please tell me what is American culture.
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