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No, the "regional hierarchy" must include district size - not just scores- to lump "like" schools together.
Ok.
I will freely admit I do not even think I know what I thought I knew about this. So I am pretty open to any information.
Clue me in a little. How does size factor in? I follow the Mega Sized -- Houston, San Antonio, Dallas, Austin all reek -- but how does size factor in the smaller scales?
Talking educationally -- not the Texas Retardothon of Football and the rest.
School is for learning, not playing games.
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Highland Park is hands-down the best public school district in Texas, but it's "like" peers in DFW are Southlake Carroll and Coppell, both single high school districts serving 7,000-9,000 students.
Lovejoy is well-regarded (but not equal or in the same league as an HP or Coppell), but it's MUCH smaller (3,000ish students) and would be a better "like" school to a small enclave suburb district like Sunnyvale. Since the high school has just graduated it's first class, it's still "unknown" as to how the district will compete once it's own AP,'SAT, etc results are tracked against the big boys. There are plenty of districts (Frisco, being one) that carry the TEA exemplary rating based on TAKS, but can't get their seniors to beat students in recognized or acceptable (says the TEA) high schools on the SAT and AP exams....you know, the ones that really count for college admissions. I know your kid(s) are in elementary school, but the HP's and Carroll's of the world have a reputation based on high school results, not elementary school ones as anyone can pass/ get commended on the TAKS test if the students are mostly white/Asian/not economically disadvantaged/ have involved parents / good teachers. What separates those districts is that all of their "exemplary"'elementary school kids grow up to kick butt in high school where it counts.
Agreed on the good start and fall down further up features at a lot of districts.
We usually have tagged that to Good Parents with Mediocre Schools.
Sharp parents can get the kids off to a good start -- but higher up, the real quality of the schools show up.
College Admission is not so much a concern for us. That is sort of assumed. We just want the kids to be able to get a decent education if they are putting in the time.
Real Question? Why is that So Hard in Texas?
It is almost like most of the area is educationally deviant.
How does size factor in? I follow the Mega Sized -- Houston, San Antonio, Dallas, Austin all reek -- but how does size factor in the smaller scales?
Talking educationally -- not the Texas Retardothon of Football and the rest.
Personally, I like the one-high school district because ALL kids are being prepared to have the same experience come 5th or 6th grade when they all merge into the same school. I think it's easier for the superintendent to control the expected teaching quality, structure as far as standards & rules, and provide a consistent environment for students. In larger districts, it's harder to keep tabs on what is actually going on in all the schools. So a HP-sized school is large enough to offer a wide variety of courses and extracurriculars (inclusive of art, music, athletics, theatre, debate/mock trial, etc- all of which DO help to develop the student into a well-rounded human being, not just an academic machine), but small enough for administrators to know almost all of the students and address individual needs.
An example of expanded offerings in a slightly larger district is that HP offers 26 AP courses. Lovejoy only offers 12. HP offers a wider selection of sports & extra-curriculars. If your daughter is a gymnast, for example, she's SOL at Lovejoy. More students means more people who might be interested in debate or academic decathlon or AP Economics or AP Latin, French, or Spanish.
It also seems that lovejoy might not be meeting the needs of it's students by forcing everyone into AP. Not all kids are cut-out for AP (or AP in all subjects) and it actually "dumbs down" the experience for the bright kids when the teacher is continually focused on getting the slow-performers up to speed. Adding regular courses would eliminate this bad experience
This is from a website called lovejoyschools.com , which is a "tell all" site about a district that seems to operate secretely:
"ALL Lovejoy secondary students are required to take ALL pre-AP/AP core classes.
Lovejoy has refused parental requests for regular track core class offerings.
The bright students are bored, the average students struggle.
Bright students, or students who are good in one subject are bored in pre-AP classes while teachers continually repeat information for students who struggle with pre-AP classes. Not EVERY student is strong in EVERY subject, in fact few are.
The end result of this experiment is that every students loses."
I would read the website if I were you....lots of interesting tidbits and parents feeling like the district disregards their input/opinions. Not a good sign regardless of how well the district is "perceived" from the outside!
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College Admission is not so much a concern for us. That is sort of assumed. We just want the kids to be able to get a decent education if they are putting in the time.[/quote]
Going to college may be a given, but what kind of college? Do you want your kid(s) in AP classes, competing with kids who have their sights on Ivy or T20 universities & liberal arts? Or kids who are aspiring for A&M, Baylor, UT, etc? The academic environment your kids are in will shape their aspirations, trust me. The colleges that Allen & McKinney top graduates are attending look a lot different than the ones HP/Coppell kids are attending.
Personally, I like the one-high school district because ALL kids are being prepared to have the same experience come 5th or 6th grade when they all merge into the same school. I think it's easier for the superintendent to control the expected teaching quality, structure as far as standards & rules, and provide a consistent environment for students. In larger districts, it's harder to keep tabs on what is actually going on in all the schools. So a HP-sized school is large enough to offer a wide variety of courses and extracurriculars (inclusive of art, music, athletics, theatre, debate/mock trial, etc- all of which DO help to develop the student into a well-rounded human being, not just an academic machine), but small enough for administrators to know almost all of the students and address individual needs.
An example of expanded offerings in a slightly larger district is that HP offers 26 AP courses. Lovejoy only offers 12. HP offers a wider selection of sports & extra-curriculars.
If your daughter is a gymnast, for example, she's SOL at Lovejoy. More students means more people who might be interested in debate or academic decathlon or AP Economics or AP Latin, French, or Spanish.
Ice Skating is her thing. So she is S in L since Mrs. and I say, "You do good, and will do what you would like." She started and hit the ice somewhere between 3 and 4 years old and has been going at it hard, since.
But no school offers Ice Skating, and we do not care. No school offers a carwash, free siding for our house, nor a free haircut -- well maybe a barber college does -- thanks but no thanks.
Again. Just want the school to do education FIRST without a bunch of nutcase stuff to go with it (and all joking aside, we have NOT found that).
In all cases we have looked at -- the "side" lines over take the main lines.
So less is more.
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It also seems that lovejoy might not be meeting the needs of it's students by forcing everyone into AP. Not all kids are cut-out for AP (or AP in all subjects) and it actually "dumbs down" the experience for the bright kids when the teacher is continually focused on getting the slow-performers up to speed. Adding regular courses would eliminate this bad experience
The way I am reading it, the operation is actually Incompetent. You follow what I am saying? Hackers.
Winging sh1t on the wall and hoping it sticks so their property values do not drop and they become Princeton.
But they have no practical idea what they are doing.
So they run all the kids through AP and only half pass the test -- so what was the point? I would just as soon drive the kids to the local Community College and get them real legit credits to carry to another real legit college.
If folks like Lovejoy cannot get their screwball admin to just do normal school decently, they have no business screwing around in AP / College level nonsense.
Their "GT" program is even a bigger mess.
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This is from a website called lovejoyschools.com , which is a "tell all" site about a district that seems to operate secretely:
"ALL Lovejoy secondary students are required to take ALL pre-AP/AP core classes.
Lovejoy has refused parental requests for regular track core class offerings.
The bright students are bored, the average students struggle.
Bright students, or students who are good in one subject are bored in pre-AP classes while teachers continually repeat information for students who struggle with pre-AP classes. Not EVERY student is strong in EVERY subject, in fact few are.
The end result of this experiment is that every students loses."
Yeah, I am on it. On the forum as "phil."
This is my Newby post covering this in much more detail, if anyone needs to track through this later >>>
Just figured I could run this past City Data for a Sanity Check.
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I would read the website if I were you....lots of interesting tidbits and parents feeling like the district disregards their input/opinions. Not a good sign regardless of how well the district is "perceived" from the outside!
Completely AGREE.
We made the mistake of starting on the Lovejoylove.org site, which is sort of their "marketing," site.
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College Admission is not so much a concern for us. That is sort of assumed. We just want the kids to be able to get a decent education if they are putting in the time.
Going to college may be a given, but what kind of college? Do you want your kid(s) in AP classes, competing with kids who have their sights on Ivy or T20 universities & liberal arts? Or kids who are aspiring for A&M, Baylor, UT, etc? The academic environment your kids are in will shape their aspirations, trust me. The colleges that Allen & McKinney top graduates are attending look a lot different than the ones HP/Coppell kids are attending.
Naw, really, not that big of deal. Quality of Education over various marketing.
Iv[or]y League or SMU or Baylor or UT or . . . or . . . or . . . are ALL just SSDC (same stuff, different college).
Once you get past the Bachelor's Level you realize what a total load of crap those "Ring Knocker" name games are. Figuring the kids will at least do a Master's in the a "real" field, and then go do what they like.
I would be happy if they started at this or that community college at 16, and did a couple years based from home -- wherever that may be, then, and then on their way, like little birdies launched out for flight.
Found the SAT on the website I posted - 1087 (math + verbal). Not anywhere close to HP's 1203. Plano West & Senior, Coppell, and Southlake are in the respectable 1100-range.
Lovejoy's 1087 ranks 15th amongst public non-magnet high schools in DFW. Ok, not great.
Found the SAT on the website I posted - 1087 (math + verbal). Not anywhere close to HP's 1203. Plano West & Senior, Coppell, and Southlake are in the respectable 1100-range.
Lovejoy's 1087 ranks 15th amongst public non-magnet high schools in DFW. Ok, not great.
Hey, btw, Thanks for your efforts.
Guess in the world we run in GRE's count for something, but I do not suppose I take those SAT numbers, etc., too seriously.
From my point of view it is CAN or CANNOT do Calculus, etc., AND Organic Chemistry. Of course, those both have many links up the path, but they are also Very Significant bottle necks to much bigger, better, broader subject matter.
We have children in Lovejoy. Schools are excellent. There is no requirement to take AP courses. All students take pre-AP in grades 6-10 to prepare for AP courses they may choose. The lovejoyschools website that was referenced is full of inaccurate information and half truths. Same 8 or 9 people post on that site few of which actually have children in the district. BTW, Lovejoy offers 25 AP courses for students to choose from starting in 10th grade.
We have children in Lovejoy. Schools are excellent.
Do you mind if I ask about grade levels or schools or anything within your experience?
We have two little monsters. Both Lovejoy Elementary.
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First Grader seems ok, and the teacher is Very Involved. For example, some of the class met this weekend on a Monarch butterfly egg and caterpillar expedition. Wound up playing in a creek with frogs, clams and mud, and had a great time.
The teacher is using an overhead projector microscope so the kids can track the whole life progression. They get and feed them milkweek and do hatch-and-release.
So that we see as very favorable.
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Our 4th Grader is where we have hit the roadblock. They are teaching in math the same things she has already covered in both 2nd, and again in 3rd grade.
We are trying to negotiate some form of self-pace, so she can move on. Presently she comes home daily asking if we can teach her something new, because they will not let her advance in class.
At this point we are looking at pulling her out so that she learn something. In this regard we are Very Glad we did not buy here.
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There is no requirement to take AP courses. All students take pre-AP in grades 6-10 to prepare for AP courses they may choose.
I do not know much about that part, either way. All way above our kids' level or our experience.
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The lovejoyschools website that was referenced is full of inaccurate information and half truths.
Any specifics on that? I have tracked through the site, and been asking for pointers and background on the Self-Paced part from above.
Most of what they seem to publish is based on actual record school documents, is it not? Just really asking. Do you know?
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Same 8 or 9 people post on that site few of which actually have children in the district.
It seems some of them had kids who were sort of ran out of the district because they were somehow considered "slow" or might have hurt the test scores.
If that is true -- That is sort of like . . . umm . . . Real Illegal, is it not?
Others' reported top-end students who seemed to get screwed around by the en masse "Gifted and Talented" program? Have you seen those numbers? That cannot be straight up, can it?
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BTW, Lovejoy offers 25 AP courses for students to choose from starting in 10th grade.
Yeah, we were thinking we would just have the kids startling legit college classes at that point, if they wanted to -- so what is the point of doing AP? Real question, there, too.
btw, thanks, we are just looking for real legit information.
We only seem to get the Stepford Happy Face routine, or the Debbie Downer crowd from lovejoyschools.com. So far, the lovejoyschools.com folks seem more legit because it is matching our experience with the 4th Grader.
But thanks again for any information or suggestions you may have.
They are teaching in math the same things she has already covered in both 2nd, and again in 3rd grade.
Welcome to the world of "spiraling". It's all the rage in the world of math education. Works great for kids who need to see things several times before fully "getting it". Works terrible for kids who can understand things the first time.
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We are trying to negotiate some form of self-pace, so she can move on. Presently she comes home daily asking if we can teach her something new, because they will not let her advance in class.
Well, teach her something new. I recommend the Zaccaro books for the tween/early teen set. Later, move on to the Art of Problem Solving books and/or courses.
Few serious math whiz kids rely on the public school curriculum. Treat the school content as a review or "down time", and just assume you'll be doing the real math teaching at home. Lowers the blood pressure if you look at things that way.
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Others' reported top-end students who seemed to get screwed around by the en masse "Gifted and Talented" program?
What's that line from The Incredibles? "When everyone's super... no one will be!" That's pretty much how it plays out.
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Yeah, we were thinking we would just have the kids startling legit college classes at that point, if they wanted to -- so what is the point of doing AP? Real question, there, too.
Real answer - highly selective schools will be impressed with high grades in AP classes from a good school district. High grades from community college courses at Collin College? Not so much. That's how the admissions game works.
Now, if you don't care about getting into Cornell, then AP and CC courses become two interchangeable ways of getting college credit ahead of time. Pick your poison. Although, if you're not happy with the quality of education in Lovejoy, I shudder to think what you'll say about the broad spectrum of quality available at Collin College, home of the perma-adjunct.
Welcome to the world of "spiraling". It's all the rage in the world of math education. Works great for kids who need to see things several times before fully "getting it". Works terrible for kids who can understand things the first time.
Well, Amen and Thank You.
At curriculum night I was asking about the syllabus, and the teachers were looking at me like I had just stepped off a UFO. They never put one together and no one had ever asked.
So instead they started telling me about the wonders of spiraling -- and then it was my turn to gawk at them. I had never heard of something so stupid.
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Well, teach her something new.
Sure. We have been playing with cubic roots with chalk on the driveway.
Might do a cubic root hopskotch tomorrow.
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I recommend the Zaccaro books for the tween/early teen set. Later, move on to the Art of Problem Solving books and/or courses.
Thank you. Really. I am doing the "Best Practice" type stuff regarding books for Self-Paced as I am goofing off writing this.
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Few serious math whiz kids rely on the public school curriculum. Treat the school content as a review or "down time",
Or total waste of time. When she is coming in the door begging me to "Please, Please, Teach Me Something -- all We Did Was Sit Around Today!"
I start musing that we came all the way to Lilywhite for THIS?
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and just assume you'll be doing the real math teaching at home. Lowers the blood pressure if you look at things that way.
Already there.
You know me by now, hmmm, my Overbearing Brother? Already have a paper fight going on (am up researching it tonight) just to try to get these half-wits to allow her to do Self-Paced work.
She is asking if we will pull out of Lovejoy for Homeschool by the end of this week if they will not let her self-pace.
Just as soon keep her in for the English, Spanish, and other stuff. She is already nerdy enough without spending all day with us.
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What's that line from The Incredibles? "When everyone's super... no one will be!" That's pretty much how it plays out.
Total wankerdom. Another Do Not Play that game. Just drive around it. Their entire GT program has become so bumper sticker moron-ed that they have a GT Parent's Club. Just send $20. No kidding. You know I could not make that up. I am embarrassed for the morons, but I just smile and wave.
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Real answer - highly selective schools will be impressed with high grades in AP classes from a good school district. High grades from community college courses at Collin College? Not so much. That's how the admissions game works.
Now, if you don't care about getting into Cornell, then AP and CC courses become two interchangeable ways of getting college credit ahead of time. Pick your poison. Although, if you're not happy with the quality of education in Lovejoy, I shudder to think what you'll say about the broad spectrum of quality available at Collin College, home of the perma-adjunct.
Highly selective. Jebuz please. By the time you are hitting anything serious in any real subject matter at the Jr. / Sr. Level -- I have not found a school that would not take a serious student.
This is the real way real academia works -- Money or Smarts. Either you buy the result, or you come in with enough smarts going on to make the institution look good and/or bring in research money.
And they Do Not Care where you took English 101, 102, Gov., History credits from. Sorry, really no one / no where of any worth does. First 40 to 50 credits are just crap that nobody cares about.
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I recommend the Zaccaro books for the tween/early teen set. Later, move on to the Art of Problem Solving books and/or courses. 
Jebuz please. By the time you are hitting anything serious in any real subject matter at the Jr. / Sr. Level -- I have not found a school that would not take a serious student. 
