moving to Frisco/Allen from Denver....please help! (Dallas, Plano: low income, foreclosure)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thx1234,
Just over a year ago, I was in the same place as you. I lived in TN and my family was gearing up to move to the Dallas area. My sister lives and Carrollton and brother in law lives in Allen. The first weekend I came to house hunt, I looked at 50 houses. No joke. It was rough. I looked in Lewisville, Coppell, Allen, Frisco, Little Elm, Plano, Carrollton, and McKinney. After that first weekend I had it narrowed down to three cities: Allen, Frisco, and Plano. Lewisville just didn't fit my family, Coppell was out of my price range, Carrollton was too "old", Little Elm's school district was not up to par, and Mckinney just got to be too far out. I was looking for a really nice (not necessarily ritzy or new) neighborhood, close access to shopping, doctors, etc., and most importantly good schools.
I have one child in elementary and one in middle school. I was on this site every day for almost a year. I had the hardest time narrowing it down any further because everybody just kept saying that Frisco was the place to be. I did love it. The shopping is just amazing. Everything at your fingertips. The schools are great. The housing was all over the place. You'd have a ton of foreclosures and right next to them a brand new subdivision going up. The one thing I didn't get from Frisco was a sense of community. Then there was Plano, the old "it" place to be. I compared the schools with Frisco and Allen and Plano came up in last place.
Then there was Allen. If you only look East of 75 you will find some very old homes, older homes and gently used homes. I liked that it was almost all nice, neat pockets of neighborhoods. If you look just West of 75 you will find beautiful new homes in your price range all the way up to the million dollar mark. As you know Allen has some really great and new shopping. There's the Villages, Watters Creek, and the Premium Outlets. Tons of fast food places, banks, doctors and anything else one might need.
My biggest two concerns were: the comments I got from the Dallasites on this site about these cities lacking in diversity and being just a bunch of white people with preppy clothing and princes and princesses for children, and second the massive size of Allen's High school. Well, I decided on Allen and chose the same neighborhood as my brother and sister in law (Lost Creek Ranch). I have been here since the first
of July. I LOVE the sense of community here. People are very friendly, are always out either walking their dogs or at the park with their kids. It's a very out and about type of community as opposed to just living in your house and never knowing your neighbor's which seems to have become the norm. I was nearly blown away by the Indian population here in Allen. It is very large. I am so happy that the Dallasites did not know what they were talking about.
We have a very diverse population here in Allen. Indian, African-American, White, Hispanic, and European. There is also always some kind of event going on for your entertainment. As far as the Allen High school goes, I really decided to take a risk and see how it works. I don't have any great knowledge to impart on it's inner workings but I do know they have a system and it seems to work. One last note, Allen is just as "transient" as any of the other places mentioned, as is I believe, every city in America in this day and age. My kids were definitely not the only new kids in town and they both have acclimated quickly and both have also made many friends already. I hope this helps you in any way! Good luck with your decision and go with your gut!!
1. Moderator cut: see comment What criteria/ data/ research/ statistics led you to decide Plano ISD was below Frisco and Allen ISD's? I'd really like to hear how you came to that conclusion since Plano ISD leaves the other two in the dust using SAT, NMSF, AP, percent of graduating class going to T50 schools, etc as a measuring stick.
Last edited by BstYet2Be; 11-09-2011 at 11:18 PM..
Reason: orphaned post comment
1. What criteria/ data/ research/ statistics led you to decide Plano ISD was below Frisco and Allen ISD's? I'd really like to hear how you came to that conclusion since Plano ISD leaves the other two in the dust using SAT, NMSF, AP, percent of graduating class going to T50 schools, etc as a measuring stick.
Turtle Creek, do you have or had a child in Plano ISD? Or Frisco ISD or Allen? Can you give me something else than data. SAT, NMSF, AP etc...don't give the entire story. Why do you think that so many people are leaving PISD? Why do you think that so many teacher do not put their children in PISD?
Have you ever look at the stupidity of the math program call Connect Math that is taught in Plano? Not all elementary schools in Plano are equal, some of them are so stressful, the level of competition is so intense, and let's put that way in the top schools in Plano if you are not Asian or your child isn't a genious, you cannot compete and your child won't be receiving the best education if you don't get in Avid, he will be one the forgotten ordinary kid. Some schools even started to cut things like recess starting first grade, to get more educational studies in or they are pushing medications. Some schools are becoming military academies due to the level of poverty increasing every year , and yes some of those are on the West side. My kids were in one of them , it was a nightmare, we had to transfer.
I have been camping for the last 4 years all night long for me or to help friends on transfer day. Actually, have you seen the line for transfer day? This is the dirty secret in Plano. This year people are expectating to camp for at least 2 days to avoid schools like Carpenter middle school. We also know that this is probably one of the last year they are going to accept transfer, this year it was a nightmare
for kindergarten, over 200 and plus parents waited for 20 spots in good schools.
We were in the Legacy /Custer area, so in West Plano but because of the increasing poverty and the high ratio of rented houses our house was also loosing fast it's value, so we moved, and we ended up in Plano in FISD, the best thing we ever did!
Last edited by BstYet2Be; 11-09-2011 at 11:25 PM..
Reason: updated quoted text
Plano ISD isn't perfect. My childhood best friend has taught there for the last 5 years and a family friend is an elementary school principal so I do have a lot of inside scoop, good & bad. I also work in Plano and hear the school antedotes from coworkers with kids in all the CoCo districts. I do know the Connect Math program and I agree- it's downright weird and ridiculous......but it's not stopping PISD high school students from having the second or third highest Math SAT scores in the Metroplex (a lot higher than Frisco's, btw) so the district is doing something right!
Some specific responses to your post:
1. The Asian argument (only Asians are successful, everyone else is screwed) is COMPLETE CRAP. All ethnicities in PISD rank in the top 10 SAT scores for their demographic in the metroplex. Frisco and Allen aren't anywhere near that high performing. Only Coppell is as diverse and high performing across all ethnicities.
2. How do you figure that "so many people are leaving PISD"? The district's population is 55,000. It was 53,000 in 2006. For a suburb that's basically built out, that would show the district is growing, not shrinking......
I know the DMN had a front page article recently claiming families were leaving PISD "in droves" for
private school. It claimed Greenhill has 50% more Plano students this year than last year. Let's break that down. Greenhill has about 60-70 open spots each year for PK-12. However these families are leaving PISD which would mean they at least went to K in PISD....that leaves about 30 spots open for 1-12 at Greenhill. Let's assume on the very high side that 50% of those slots went to PISD kids. That's a whopping 15, putting the Greenhill population at 30 Plano kids. 30. In a district of 55,000. I fail to see how this is front page news other than being sensational and alarmist. People want to leave PISD for Prestonwood & JPII- have at it. They are probably wealthy and need more coddling than a mega district can give.
3. Yes, the demographics are shifting. My bff's class of 15-17 elemetary school kids in a Plano Senior feeder has 0 white kids this year. I think about half are free lunch. Her class last year was about the same, but with 1 or 2 white kids. Her entire class passed TAKS last year and over half were commended. Poverty doesn't mean failure when you have great teachers and administrators. Some classes are better than others, but after 5 years it's been pretty consistent. These minority, lower income PISD kids kick butt for the most part! I think that's great. Aparently, some of the weaker white parents are threatened by both the poor kids and the super high achieving Asian kids "stealing little Johnny's thunder." To them, I say grow a spine and look at the real world. These are the same kids competing with your kids for college admissions and later in the job market. You can't hide forever.
4. Re: tranfers. PISD is a mega district. Some schools are going to suck when there are 55,000 students across dozens of campuses. All it takes is one bad principal sometimes. But occasional bad schools doesn't mean write off the whole district; it means find the right school for you and buy/rent there. No different than Richardson, Dallas, Fort Worth & other area mega districts. Your family has to own it's education, not count on the district to do it for you like you see in tiny districts.
Lastly, grade school exists to prepare kids for college. Using the proven best indicators of college performance (AP & SAT), Plano leaves Frisco & Allen in the dust:
SAT: Rank in DFW metroplex/ high school/ score (M+V)
3) 1183 - West (Plano ISD)
4) 1180 - Senior (Plano ISD)
10) 1129 - East (Plano ISD)
18) 1089 - Allen (Allen ISD)
24) 1080 - Frisco (Frisco ISD)
29) 1060 - Wakeland (Frisco ISD)
34) 1050 - Liberty (Frisco ISD)
100-120 points doesn't sound like a lot, but it's the difference in being UT material and being Tech/Texas State material. Or the difference between SMU and Vanderbilt.
AP - percent passed/ percent of upperclassmen enrolled in AP:
85.2 - Senior (Plano) - 44.3
83.3 - West (Plano) - 51.5
69.0 - East (Plano) - 35.4
Passing rates are comparable between PISD and FISD, but a significantly higher percent of students are taking college level classes at PWSH & PS vs only 1/3 or less of class in Frisco. Allen is behind Plano significantly for pass rates and enrollment.
Plano ISD dominates the metroplex for National Merit- having almost 6X the average school's Semifinalists. Allen & Frisco aren't even on the scoreboard in DFW.... And the Plano success isn't all Asian attributed. Just using names, 29 of this year's 96 NMSF have very Caucasian sounding names - about 1/3. Even zeroing out the entire Asian population, PISD still has more NMSF as a % of class than Frisco or Allen. (The district would slip behind nearly all-white HPISD's % to total, but still be rifht at the top of DFW schools). There goes the Asian argument.....
# of NMSF by school, 2008-2012:
217 Plano Senior (3.2% of cumulative 5-year graduates)
170 Plano West (3.4%)
110 Plano East (1.5%)
40. Frisco ISD *** total (.2%)
38 Allen (.6%)
Strip the Asians out of PISD and leave them in the other two districts and PISD still performs 3-5X better than Frisco & Allen. NMSF is the top .5% of seniors. Frisco is operating at 50% of an average district. Allen is a hair above "average". Plano's schools are 3-7X better than average. Case closed.
Everyone makes some good points...The stats are this way now but they will be changing.Some of the Dfw suburbs will be very different in a few years.I strongly believe that Posper ,Allen and Lovejoy isd's will become more desirable than Plano isd and be able to compete with their stats.Prosper's build out is 70,000 and Allen is almost built out at around 80,000.Frisco is expected to be about 280,000 at build out and will be comparable to Plano in size.It will take time but these isds will grow and most likely thrive.That is why many people moving here with toddler aged children have no problem waiting it out for these isd's to develop.We all know that wealthy parents in wealthy towns tend to drive the success of the school district.Do they have special magic genes that create extra smart kids.Maybe some but the kids perform well usually because they have a pleasant home life and 2 parents around with little worry.Many low income and minority kids unfortunately do not have that.While Chase's mom is up until 11 at night helping him study,Juan'smom is tired from coming home late from her shift at Walmart and has trouble understanding english.Juan is not getting that study help and constant supervision.The best districts down here are in wealthy /Upper middle class areas...
- Highland park
- Southlake carroll
- Allen
- Frisco
- Prosper
- Love joy
- Coppell
- Colleyville/Grapevine
- Keller
- Flower mound (zoned Lewisville isd)
- Highland village (zoned Lewisville isd)
- Plano isd in zip codes 75093,75024 and 75025
The median income for these areas is mostly over $100,000
Some of the less desireable districts,just to name a few
- Mesquite
- Garland
- Cedar Hill
- Irving
- Carrollton
- Grand Prairie
- Duncanville
- Desoto
- Little Elm
Median incomes are much lower
Chase's parents are buying houses in Frisco/Allen /Southlake/Colleyville/Coppell/Flower mound/Hp/Prosper/Fairview and Juan's parents are renting apartments in Plano.Plano isd's changing demographics are directly affecting people's decisions to purchase homes and put their kids in the schools.Before I joined this forum,I read many posts about Collin county to help me make a decision on where to move.We passed on Plano for many reasons stated in this topic post.I know many people who think the same as we do.They are young with children and investing their money in homes that feed to other isd's.Plano is somewhat defined by the Asian and Indian students.I believe that the district could soon be defined by the changing demographics and the students that are low income and or nglish speaking.These kids have every right to a good school and education.But everyone has the right to decide where they buy a house and who they pay tax dollars to.
Some of the less desireable districts,just to name a few
- Mesquite
- Garland
- Cedar Hill
- Irving
- Carrollton
- Grand Prairie
- Duncanville
- Desoto
- Little Elm
Median incomes are much lower
Well, every city can't have a median income of $100,000 and the people who don't make that much have to live somewhere. In each of those districts you labeled "less desirable," there are good schools and a sizable population of middle-class families who work hard and do care about their children's education. I'm sure they have all produced students who have become productive, successful members of society. That is not exclusive to wealthy communities with low numbers of disadvantaged students. Whether you live in a so-called "desirable" or "less desirable" school district, if a child isn't motivated to do well and/or has crappy parents who don't emphasize the importance of education, the outcome is the same: failure.
And since you have all the answers TC, can you tell me how are we suppose to support our kids? The Asian population is catered for, the poor population is catered for in Plano and if your child doesn't qualified for Pace, or if you are not loaded and able to send your child in tutoring school during the weekend, you are basically left behind.
I have been very active inside the school system for years and different sports associations, I do know people, we are a lot to complain, and I do not wait for the system to do my job, I'm actually not even American, but one of those foreigner. For years! Even before I had children in school,I used to glorify PISD, the same way you do it know, until a few years ago, when the shift of demography started and when PISD started to be to big for it's own good. We start to see the same problems than in Dallas.
If you look at it, the schools are starting to get socially segregated the last rezonning has not helped. The transfer issue is not only a few kids and some isolated problems, it has become a real problem in Plano, so much that the news is that starting next year, they may have to start a lottery system. You should come to camp this year, all parent's waiting on linę are talking, it's a Real enlightment on the situation.
Last edited by BstYet2Be; 11-09-2011 at 11:29 PM..
Crew......the Prosper pandering is disgusting. I won't pull out all of Prosper ISD's dismal stats again and embarrass you. But being 40th in DFW for SAT scores and not even 1 NMSF in this year's senior class is about the farthest thing from a "thriving" college prep program. You keep hoping for the future, but the current state isn't much to write home about. "Chase's" parents would be better served buying in HPISD, Plano ISD, Coppell ISD, Carroll ISD, and the FM part of Lewisville ISD.
Plano is somewhat defined by the Asian and Indian students.I believe that the district could soon be defined by the changing demographics and the students that are low income and or nglish speaking.
You made the same Asian claim on another thread. I presented facts that ALL demographics thrive in Plano ISD - yet you didn't respond. Maybe you will this time:
SAT averages, by demographic:
White Plano Students:
Plano West - 2nd highest score in DFW
Plano East- 4th highest
Plano Senior - 5th highest
Hispanic students:
Plano West- Ranks 4th in DFW (I tossed out HP as Hispanic population is minute)
Plano Senior- Ranks 9th
Plano East- Ranks 11th
Black students:
Plano Senior- ranks 3rd in DFW
Plano West - ranks 5th
Plano East- ranks 8th
Asian Students:
Plano West- ranks 2nd
Plano Senior- ranks 3rd
Plano East- ranks 7th
Where in these facts do you see that the other demographics are "pulling Plano down"? 11/12 groups rank in the Top 10 out of 100+ high schools in DFW. The only other districts who can claim the same are HP, Carroll, and Coppell. PISD is near the top, with or without it's Asian population.
Last edited by TurtleCreek80; 11-09-2011 at 11:31 PM..
Well, every city can't have a median income of $100,000 and the people who don't make that much have to live somewhere. In each of those districts you labeled "less desirable," there are good schools and a sizable population of middle-class families who work hard and do care about their children's education. I'm sure they have all produced students who have become productive, successful members of society. That is not exclusive to wealthy communities with low numbers of disadvantaged students. Whether you live in a so-called "desirable" or "less desirable" school district, if a child isn't motivated to do well and/or has crappy parents who don't emphasize the importance of education, the outcome is the same: failure.
You nailed it- parents, not income, are the biggest factor in academic success. If all you needed was wealth, Frisco ISD and it's highest HH income in CoCo would be performing like a champ instead of a lightweight.
Luckily for families who don't make $100k++ a year, there are tons of great schools and districts for families of almost every income level-> in Richardson ISD, Dallas ISD, Grapevine part of GCISD, Lewisville ISD, Cedar Hill ISD, Mansfield ISD, FWISD, Garland ISD and on and on.
Crew's ignorance won't stand in the way of average families who value education finding knock-out public schools for their kids in the metroplex. Remember, a family with "Juan's" household income could very well be a household headed by a teacher, an artist, a minister, a nurse, a non-profit worker, etc. Average or below income doesn't automatically mean uneducated or unskilled.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $53,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
