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Old 01-11-2012, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
891 posts, read 2,498,202 times
Reputation: 263

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinipig523 View Post
Wow... you're right.

Awesome!
Virgin America is awesome! But the prices are just too high for me.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
5,681 posts, read 9,729,776 times
Reputation: 1889
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpepping View Post
Virgin America is awesome! But the prices are just too high for me.
...and they really don't have the nationwide reach to provide meaningful competition to AA at DFW. Yes, they fly "coast to coast", but it's mainly flyover between the coasts and to select ultra-large markets.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Plano
718 posts, read 1,103,283 times
Reputation: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpepping View Post
Virgin America is awesome! But the prices are just too high for me.
They don't have a lot of destination yet but I paid $198 for round trip to San Fransisco last year , they still carry their sale price this year , same thing for LA . I don't think you can go cheaper.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
891 posts, read 2,498,202 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Souleiado View Post
They don't have a lot of destination yet but I paid $198 for round trip to San Fransisco last year , they still carry their sale price this year , same thing for LA . I don't think you can go cheaper.
Yea I guess we didn't book early enough in advance. I will definitely try to fly them when I can. Too bad they don't have direct flights to Las Vegas.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 20,458,080 times
Reputation: 10198
In reading through this thread there is a severe lack of knowledge about the airline industry here. Im an airline consultant by trade so I may be able to explain. Allow me to make some points:

1) Demand and Seasonality: People complain about prices all the time, but its a simple matter of availability and demand. People wonder why it costs so much to fly to the Caribbean in the winter. The answer, because the amount of people who want to go there in the winter is very very high. With high demand comes full planes. When the planes are full, the prices go up. Its not some sort of racket, its simply supply and demand.

Let me show you an example:

Below is flight availability on a flight from DFW to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The letters represent fare categories. There are 12-15 on every flight no matter how many seats the plane holds. The numbers next to the letters represent availability in each fare category:

AA 251 J7 R7 D7 I5 Y7 B7 H7 G7 K7 M7 DFWGIG 745P 1020A+763
L7 V7 S7 N7 Q0 O0

As you can see this flight is not very full and the round trip price (if you put a return with similar availability) is only $1100.

Now compare that with this flight on the same route:

AA 251 J3 R2 D0 I0 Y6 B6 H5 G4 K0 M0 DFWGIG1105P 605A+
L0 V0 S0 N0 Q0 O0

This flight has much less availability and as such, if you put it with another flight that has similar availability, the price is $2700 round trip.

There are also many different fare rules that go with each fare. Below is a tarrif disply that goes on the DFW-Rio De Janerio:

AA 1043.00R SHE03BQ1 S + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1192.00R VHE03BQ1 V + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1290.00R LHE03BQ1 L + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1458.00R MHE03BQ1 M + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1662.00R KHE03BQ1 K + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1898.00R HHE03BQ1 H + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 2167.00R BHE03BQ1 B + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1454.00 BNE01AV5 B +
AA 4770.00R INE01AQ1 I +
AA 5372.00R Y1EFFQ Y +
AA 5529.00R INE51AQ1 I 14+
AA 3163.00 Y1WFFV Y +
AA 3163.00 Y1XFFV Y +
AA 3163.00 YW Y +
AA 3163.00 YX Y +
AA 6856.00R DNE01AQ1 D +
AA 7776.00R RNE01AQ5 R +
AA 4428.00 J1WFFV J +
AA 4428.00 JW J +
AA 4428.00 JX J +
AA 5428.00 ANE01AV5 A +
AA 5928.00 F1WFFV F +
AA 5928.00 F1XFFV F +
AA 5928.00 FW F +
AA 5928.00 FX F +

Each one of these fare displays has over 15 pages of rules that go along with it. Some cannot be combined with the other ones.

Also while I used an American flight as an example, every single airline (including Southwest and Virgin America) opperates this way.

2) The airline charges those prices because people pay those fares. If people didnt pay those fares, the airline wouldnt charge them. Dallas is a business heavy market with little tourism. Most of the travel to Dallas is either business related or VFR (visiting friends and relatives) related. People in business heavy markets are willing to pay for what they want because their companies usually foot the bill. In addition Dallas is a premium heavy market. Many people flying to Dallas usually pay full fare economy and business fares. Its the same in markets like Houston and DC. This isnt Las Vegas or Orlando where tourism rules.

3) The loyalty to American in Dallas is something that no other carrier can match. Believe it or not, those of you who are upset about price are not the airlines priority. You are what people in the industry refer to as "low yielding traffic". The airline loses money on you more times that it makes money on you. The airlines bread and butter is business traffic. Those are the people who show a great deal of loyalty and dont care about price for the most part. The airline still markets to everyone, but they roll out programs and go the extra mile for business traffic.

The majority of high yielding traffic will always go to American. Recently, I was negotiating a contract for a firm in Dallas who travels back and forth to Seoul constantly in First class. These tickets are often over $14000. Yet, instead of going to Korean Air (who flies 5x a week nonstop from Dallas to Seoul), they wanted me to negotiate with American who connects them in Tokyo and has fares that are higher.

4) In Dallas, on the markets where Southwest and American compete, American and Southwest have very similar fares. Yet, people somehow love to think that Southwest is somehow a low fare savior. Here is some fare data I pulled specifically for this thread:

Destination market from Dallas. (market share % / average fare $)

Albuquerque
American – 44% / $163.02
Southwest – 49% / $156.02

Amarillo
American – 32% / $119.50
Southwest – 46% / $106.08

Austin
American – 57% / $119.00
Southwest – 40% / $114.50

Birmingham
American – 45% / $147.98
Southwest – 43% / $148.60

Corpus Christi
American – 50% / $123.51
Southwest – 38% / $121.42

El Paso
American – 40% - $131.99
Southwest – 54% - $132.07

Houston
American – 36% / $125.99
Continental – 36% / $126.50
Southwest – 21% / $110.99

Kansas City
American – 54% / $146.00
Southwest – 42% / $133.74

Little Rock
American – 54% / $116.49
Southwest – 42% / $110.09

Lubbock
American – 35% / $115.09
Southwest – 49% / $112.01

Midland
American – 44% / $116.49
Southwest – 51% / $116.71

New Orleans
American – 46% / $144.48
Southwest – 45% / $137.48

Oklahoma City
American – 60% / $118.49
Southwest – 40% / $112.46

San Antonio
American – 54% / $121.99
Southwest – 42% / $109.22

St Louis
American – 53% / $144.67
Southwest – 36% / $136.99

Tulsa
American – 56% / $112.01
Southwest – 42% / $100.59

So those who think that American is some sort of money gouger and Southwest is a charity, think again. They are both business, not charities. They are going to make the most money they know how. Delta, United, US, Virgin, JetBlue, etc. are all the same.

I guess my point is that airfares are much more complex than you think. You look online and see the prices are higher than you would like. You can either pay for the convenience or make several stops to make it cheaper in many cases. At the end of the day, its your choice.
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
5,681 posts, read 9,729,776 times
Reputation: 1889
Quote:
Originally Posted by justme02 View Post
In reading through this thread there is a severe lack of knowledge about the airline industry here. Im an airline consultant by trade so I may be able to explain. Allow me to make some points:

1) Demand and Seasonality: People complain about prices all the time, but its a simple matter of availability and demand. People wonder why it costs so much to fly to the Caribbean in the winter. The answer, because the amount of people who want to go there in the winter is very very high. With high demand comes full planes. When the planes are full, the prices go up. Its not some sort of racket, its simply supply and demand.

Let me show you an example:

Below is flight availability on a flight from DFW to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The letters represent fare categories. There are 12-15 on every flight no matter how many seats the plane holds. The numbers next to the letters represent availability in each fare category:

AA 251 J7 R7 D7 I5 Y7 B7 H7 G7 K7 M7 DFWGIG 745P 1020A+763
L7 V7 S7 N7 Q0 O0

As you can see this flight is not very full and the round trip price (if you put a return with similar availability) is only $1100.

Now compare that with this flight on the same route:

AA 251 J3 R2 D0 I0 Y6 B6 H5 G4 K0 M0 DFWGIG1105P 605A+
L0 V0 S0 N0 Q0 O0

This flight has much less availability and as such, if you put it with another flight that has similar availability, the price is $2700 round trip.

There are also many different fare rules that go with each fare. Below is a tarrif disply that goes on the DFW-Rio De Janerio:

AA 1043.00R SHE03BQ1 S + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1192.00R VHE03BQ1 V + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1290.00R LHE03BQ1 L + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1458.00R MHE03BQ1 M + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1662.00R KHE03BQ1 K + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1898.00R HHE03BQ1 H + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 2167.00R BHE03BQ1 B + V/ 01JAN -02FEB
AA 1454.00 BNE01AV5 B +
AA 4770.00R INE01AQ1 I +
AA 5372.00R Y1EFFQ Y +
AA 5529.00R INE51AQ1 I 14+
AA 3163.00 Y1WFFV Y +
AA 3163.00 Y1XFFV Y +
AA 3163.00 YW Y +
AA 3163.00 YX Y +
AA 6856.00R DNE01AQ1 D +
AA 7776.00R RNE01AQ5 R +
AA 4428.00 J1WFFV J +
AA 4428.00 JW J +
AA 4428.00 JX J +
AA 5428.00 ANE01AV5 A +
AA 5928.00 F1WFFV F +
AA 5928.00 F1XFFV F +
AA 5928.00 FW F +
AA 5928.00 FX F +

Each one of these fare displays has over 15 pages of rules that go along with it. Some cannot be combined with the other ones.

Also while I used an American flight as an example, every single airline (including Southwest and Virgin America) opperates this way.

2) The airline charges those prices because people pay those fares. If people didnt pay those fares, the airline wouldnt charge them. Dallas is a business heavy market with little tourism. Most of the travel to Dallas is either business related or VFR (visiting friends and relatives) related. People in business heavy markets are willing to pay for what they want because their companies usually foot the bill. In addition Dallas is a premium heavy market. Many people flying to Dallas usually pay full fare economy and business fares. Its the same in markets like Houston and DC. This isnt Las Vegas or Orlando where tourism rules.

3) The loyalty to American in Dallas is something that no other carrier can match. Believe it or not, those of you who are upset about price are not the airlines priority. You are what people in the industry refer to as "low yielding traffic". The airline loses money on you more times that it makes money on you. The airlines bread and butter is business traffic. Those are the people who show a great deal of loyalty and dont care about price for the most part. The airline still markets to everyone, but they roll out programs and go the extra mile for business traffic.

The majority of high yielding traffic will always go to American. Recently, I was negotiating a contract for a firm in Dallas who travels back and forth to Seoul constantly in First class. These tickets are often over $14000. Yet, instead of going to Korean Air (who flies 5x a week nonstop from Dallas to Seoul), they wanted me to negotiate with American who connects them in Tokyo and has fares that are higher.

4) In Dallas, on the markets where Southwest and American compete, American and Southwest have very similar fares. Yet, people somehow love to think that Southwest is somehow a low fare savior. Here is some fare data I pulled specifically for this thread:

Destination market from Dallas. (market share % / average fare $)

Albuquerque
American 44% / $163.02
Southwest 49% / $156.02

Amarillo
American 32% / $119.50
Southwest 46% / $106.08

Austin
American 57% / $119.00
Southwest 40% / $114.50

Birmingham
American 45% / $147.98
Southwest 43% / $148.60

Corpus Christi
American 50% / $123.51
Southwest 38% / $121.42

El Paso
American 40% - $131.99
Southwest 54% - $132.07

Houston
American 36% / $125.99
Continental 36% / $126.50
Southwest 21% / $110.99

Kansas City
American 54% / $146.00
Southwest 42% / $133.74

Little Rock
American 54% / $116.49
Southwest 42% / $110.09

Lubbock
American 35% / $115.09
Southwest 49% / $112.01

Midland
American 44% / $116.49
Southwest 51% / $116.71

New Orleans
American 46% / $144.48
Southwest 45% / $137.48

Oklahoma City
American 60% / $118.49
Southwest 40% / $112.46

San Antonio
American 54% / $121.99
Southwest 42% / $109.22

St Louis
American 53% / $144.67
Southwest 36% / $136.99

Tulsa
American 56% / $112.01
Southwest 42% / $100.59

So those who think that American is some sort of money gouger and Southwest is a charity, think again. They are both business, not charities. They are going to make the most money they know how. Delta, United, US, Virgin, JetBlue, etc. are all the same.

I guess my point is that airfares are much more complex than you think. You look online and see the prices are higher than you would like. You can either pay for the convenience or make several stops to make it cheaper in many cases. At the end of the day, its your choice.
All true, but more competition in a market tends to hold the lid on pricing and is always welcome!
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:23 PM
 
Location: dallas, texas
428 posts, read 1,214,655 times
Reputation: 291
Thats a lot of knowledge. But I think you confirm my point. We need competition. Otherwise, AA is going to target and market to Business Travelers only.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:05 PM
 
350 posts, read 725,431 times
Reputation: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by portorro View Post
Thats a lot of knowledge. But I think you confirm my point. We need competition. Otherwise, AA is going to target and market to Business Travelers only.
You can't fill an entire airplane with people who fly once a year to visit Aunt Trudy.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
5,681 posts, read 9,729,776 times
Reputation: 1889
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT3x View Post
You can't fill an entire airplane with people who fly once a year to visit Aunt Trudy.
If the market's big enough (i.e., the Metroplex), you sure can! Lots of people fly for lots of non-business reasons.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
1,592 posts, read 3,049,116 times
Reputation: 704
A monopoly is always bad. Air-fares to the same destination from, say, Houston is much cheaper due to lack of monopoly. Wish Delta still maintained a hub here .
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