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Old 02-14-2012, 01:21 PM
 
1,256 posts, read 3,179,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiu-bimmer View Post
What's wrong with Toll Brothers subdivisions? We might put an offer to build at Shady Oaks this week.
Just not my first choice. I don't know about others here.

It's good unless you want to really customize the home... it becomes expensive. Plus, tract-quality for the price of a custom home.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
326 posts, read 634,810 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by skids929 View Post
TB isn't exactly synonymous with quality construction. I get the feeling their reputation is better in Texas than it is in most other regions of the US. That said, you should only plan on taking that reputation so far. I would recommend an independent inspection at each major stage of the construction if you plan on staying in this home for a while.

I know a few contractors in the Northeast who worked with TB..They had a saying about the quality of a TBs home. Went something like, you can take a hammer and throw it at one side of the house and will come clean through the other side.

It's fair to say Toll Brothers and Pulte are in the same basket..So the question is, what are your opinions of Pulte.
Not sure if I agree with this. Toll Brothers reputation seemed to get worse as you move West, and Pulte's got worse as you move east. TB was fairly well thought of in the Southeastern PA area that I recently came from (or maybe it's all the other builders were that bad). Pulte did some OK jobs in the Southwest, but was really poor moving eastward. Ah, regardless, I wouldn't buy either in TX though (although I'd probably go TB before Grand)...
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:02 PM
 
8 posts, read 14,667 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by skids929 View Post
TB isn't exactly synonymous with quality construction. I get the feeling their reputation is better in Texas than it is in most other regions of the US. That said, you should only plan on taking that reputation so far. I would recommend an independent inspection at each major stage of the construction if you plan on staying in this home for a while.

I know a few contractors in the Northeast who worked with TB..They had a saying about the quality of a TBs home. Went something like, you can take a hammer and throw it at one side of the house and will come clean through the other side.

It's fair to say Toll Brothers and Pulte are in the same basket..So the question is, what are your opinions of Pulte.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeh19468 View Post
Not sure if I agree with this. Toll Brothers reputation seemed to get worse as you move West, and Pulte's got worse as you move east. TB was fairly well thought of in the Southeastern PA area that I recently came from (or maybe it's all the other builders were that bad). Pulte did some OK jobs in the Southwest, but was really poor moving eastward. Ah, regardless, I wouldn't buy either in TX though (although I'd probably go TB before Grand)...
The house were I currently live was built by Pulte, I consider it to be average and thought that Toll Brothers would be a step up from Pulte. Also, according to the Texas Association of Builders, Toll Brothers is the Builder of the Year!!! is that award significant at all??
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:43 PM
 
2,279 posts, read 3,912,505 times
Reputation: 1505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiu-bimmer View Post
The house were I currently live was built by Pulte, I consider it to be average and thought that Toll Brothers would be a step up from Pulte. Also, according to the Texas Association of Builders, Toll Brothers is the Builder of the Year!!! is that award significant at all??
TAB is nothing more than a badge of honor for builders, it's an "association of builders". They take money from the builders, so really it's meaningless for you as a consumer to consider them impartial in any way. From the sounds of it it's nothing more than a political lobby set up for the builders benefit.

They're all thick as thieves if you ask me, some are just worse than others. If your looking for unbiased info, BBB, JD Power, Google searches, local court records etc. Not trying to disparage your taste, but it is your home so you want to make a sound decision. TB isn't the cream of the crop, but like Mike said, they aren't Grand Homes either, but they most certainly aren't Darling or Highland either. They land in the below average portion of the scale in my opinion.

You know what I would do, I would call a builder you know is quality (Darling comes to mind again) and ask them to give some basic material/strategic differences in their homes that are better then Toll Brothers, write it all down then go hold Toll to task on why/if they don't do the same. It's a competitive market, treat it that way. It will also be a learning experience so you know some of the details that go into a quality build as opposed to something slap-up. You would want to talk to project managers, not the dumb sales people. a good builder will give you access to those guys.

Again though, an independent inspector paid for by you at each major stage probably resolves alot of your concerns. Worth the thousand or so extra $$. God forbid it ever had to come down to a legal dispute, they win all day long. They have their contracts worded so perfectly airtight you as a consumer wouldn't stand a chance in court if it got to that point. Point is, do all the work on the front end of the deal, and don't trust any builder anymore than you have to.

Last edited by skids929; 02-15-2012 at 12:57 PM..
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Old 02-16-2012, 07:24 AM
 
27,454 posts, read 44,947,050 times
Reputation: 14041
what most people don't understand is that when you sign a contract to buy a home built by any company like Toll Brothers there is usually a clause that prohibits inspections by 3rd party inspectors the buyer might hire--
while I think that is probably illegal, having it taken out or amended might be something you could not get the builder to agree to...

In Colleyville area Toll Brothers bought excess lots that were in foreclosure in communities that David Begwell--who was OC/DC compulsive about quality in construction/finish out
I doubt that Toll's homes are going to be the same standard as those that were built under Bagwell's oversight by independent custom builders...so the homeowners in those neighborhoods who b & m'ed about Bagwell's unfairly high standards and created law suits to reduce the standards of the neighborhood covenants are probably doing the same b&m about what Toll will build...and if they did reduce the standards of their covenants though those lawsuits then they will suffer the consequences...

Realtor we worked with several years ago said that in Tarrant areas like Southlake where Toll built years ago the homes were not noticibly deficite in comparison with other neighborhoods...

just understand that when you buy home with main stream home builder like Pulte or Toll or Darling--
you better have attorney to read the contract before you sign and explain what you are giving up in control of issues...

and yes--if the price point was basically the same I would choose development that had local independent builders vs larger development companies--
depending on who the builders were of course--just because someone is a "custom" builder that does not automatically mean his product is always better than a larger company's product--
and on one street with homes built by same builder or large construction company any two houses can have various degrees of problems/quality standards
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
326 posts, read 634,810 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read View Post
what most people don't understand is that when you sign a contract to buy a home built by any company like Toll Brothers there is usually a clause that prohibits inspections by 3rd party inspectors the buyer might hire--
while I think that is probably illegal, having it taken out or amended might be something you could not get the builder to agree to...

In Colleyville area Toll Brothers bought excess lots that were in foreclosure in communities that David Begwell--who was OC/DC compulsive about quality in construction/finish out
I doubt that Toll's homes are going to be the same standard as those that were built under Bagwell's oversight by independent custom builders...so the homeowners in those neighborhoods who b & m'ed about Bagwell's unfairly high standards and created law suits to reduce the standards of the neighborhood covenants are probably doing the same b&m about what Toll will build...and if they did reduce the standards of their covenants though those lawsuits then they will suffer the consequences...

Realtor we worked with several years ago said that in Tarrant areas like Southlake where Toll built years ago the homes were not noticibly deficite in comparison with other neighborhoods...

just understand that when you buy home with main stream home builder like Pulte or Toll or Darling--
you better have attorney to read the contract before you sign and explain what you are giving up in control of issues...

and yes--if the price point was basically the same I would choose development that had local independent builders vs larger development companies--
depending on who the builders were of course--just because someone is a "custom" builder that does not automatically mean his product is always better than a larger company's product--
and on one street with homes built by same builder or large construction company any two houses can have various degrees of problems/quality standards

Interestingly enough, Highland actually supported my having a 3rd party inspector come in. The Highland site manager came out and walked through with him as well, and was taking notes too. I'd guess that Darling, Drees, and Highland probably are going to be the same way. When you take a little more pride in your work, you're not afraid of having someone else critique it...
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:45 AM
 
2,279 posts, read 3,912,505 times
Reputation: 1505
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeh19468 View Post
Interestingly enough, Highland actually supported my having a 3rd party inspector come in. The Highland site manager came out and walked through with him as well, and was taking notes too. I'd guess that Darling, Drees, and Highland probably are going to be the same way. When you take a little more pride in your work, you're not afraid of having someone else critique it...
Exactly..Any builder that told me I couldn't have an inspection done on my own could go pound sand as far as I am concerned.

I put myself through college working with a Carpenter in the summers, and breaks. I am intimately familiar with contractors common denominator behaviors, and what goes into building a quality home. For the most part they are cut from the same cloth, but there are good ones out there too. I can say I agree with what Mike said here, and if your a builder that is PROUD of what your work you want people to notice it.

Pulte and TB are profit machines, and the overarching philosophy seems to be cut corners to achieve that, whereas some of the aforementioned builders believe you do quality work, words spreads, profit comes naturally. I prefer the latter approach.

I am a VERY quality oriented individual, part of my nature, a horrible affliction at times because I can't always afford what I know to be best..I would rather hold out and spend more $$ on something that will last and give me less headaches, than get something at a bargain. Cheap things are often more costly in the end. For me personally, ANY production-built home will have corners cut in places I might not agree with but just have to accept that since I can't afford custom. Therefore, I would be alot more vigilant about working with builders that have a track record of corner cutting. TB unfortunately has that reputation and although there are places to cut corners in life with your $$, your home shouldn't be one of them. Unless your staying for a short time, then who cares.

Last edited by skids929; 02-16-2012 at 10:01 AM..
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:43 PM
 
8 posts, read 14,667 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by skids929 View Post
Pulte and TB are profit machines, and the overarching philosophy seems to be cut corners to achieve that,
How about Ashton Woods? They also have several subdivision going on in the DFW area, including Southlake. Are they any good or about same?
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:52 PM
 
2,279 posts, read 3,912,505 times
Reputation: 1505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiu-bimmer View Post
How about Ashton Woods? They also have several subdivision going on in the DFW area, including Southlake. Are they any good or about same?
Better. much better. Now your talking. In terms of the production builders they rank pretty high. nsumner can speak to the details on these builder very well, you might look her up and DM her.

I have been in their homes and dealt with them on a very general preliminary level and they are great. Nice finish out, good quality. Problem with AW if you ask me is they aren't building in enough places so they don't get the attention they deserve.

Look up their ratings on JD Power too. I would second their ratings on JD just through my limited experience with them, and actual being in their homes. I went into both models and I snuck into a few unfinished homes as well--they build a solid structure. Nothing earth shatteringly better than any of the other good builders, but better than TB for sure.

Dealing with them will lighten the load for you on the front end of things.

Last edited by BstYet2Be; 02-20-2012 at 08:34 AM..
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Rocky Mountain Xplorer
956 posts, read 1,247,785 times
Reputation: 684
Isn't Southlake the place where all of the Texas state high-school football championship teams come from ? I'm confused because it's obviously a very, very affluent WASPy sort of a place ? There must be more than one SouthLake in Texas ?
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