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Old 01-24-2012, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,573 posts, read 2,303,131 times
Reputation: 2399

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I'm not talking about college kids with wealthy parents. I'm talking about adults who have made wealth or maintained family wealth. TC80 isn't a spoiled kid wading through college.

OK I'll man up and say I made a mistake in bringing TC80 into this. I dont think she is spoiled, and actually agree with most of her points here, although I do disagree with her views on other threads sometimes. So I apologize for any thing I said that could be construed in a negative light towards her. At this point I'll try to stay on topic with this conversation as I've been accused of derailing a few threads, and this one looks like it might end up going down the same path.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:22 PM
 
7,312 posts, read 8,149,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
OK I'll man up and say I made a mistake in bringing TC80 into this. I dont think she is spoiled, and actually agree with most of her points here, although I do disagree with her views on other threads sometimes. So I apologize for any thing I said that could be construed in a negative light towards her. At this point I'll try to stay on topic with this conversation as I've been accused of derailing a few threads, and this one looks like it might end up going down the same path.
You know what I apologize to you as well. I become quite frustrated about the topic of wealth redistribution generally. Re-reading my post to you above I came across as being really upset with you and that was not the case.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:37 PM
 
7,312 posts, read 8,149,428 times
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Originally Posted by skids929 View Post
Agreed on all points..I like B4life's posts as well generally and I can see his point here. But I didn't take what TC said that way at all..What I would say to your points above is , higher achieving groups have historically always taken the blame for the failure of other groups to achieve-seems to be just the way it is. And all the demagoguery in our political system doesn't help matters..I think as a society we would all be better off if those groups focused on lifting themselves (and others) up instead of trying to drag the successful down with a sense of victimhood and grievance.

I am not super wealthy, but I consider myself well enough off. I ( and my lovely wife) worked hard, try not to complain and focus on the negative to the point it interferes with any upward mobility that is thrown our way. It's not easy by the way, nothing is, whether your well off or not.

And the example B4life gave of rich kids he tutored has holes as well..One really big one that comes to mind, which is economics has this whole thing all figured out, those kids will find that out soon enough. One way or another because money DOESN'T necessarily make life a magic carpet ride.
Regarding your point about the economically successful being vilified or at least generally disliked by other groups - I think that's much of the reason so many viscerally dislike Highland Park.

My son has a good friend, from a wealthy background, who next year will graduate, hopefully, with a sociology degree and poor grades. He is in for a big surprise.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
5,681 posts, read 9,683,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skids929 View Post
What I would say to your points above is , higher achieving groups have historically always taken the blame for the failure of other groups to achieve-seems to be just the way it is. And all the demagoguery in our political system doesn't help matters..I think as a society we would all be better off if those groups focused on lifting themselves (and others) up instead of trying to drag the successful down with a sense of victimhood and grievance.
A-MEN! (And no, I'm not "religious")
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,573 posts, read 2,303,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Regarding your point about the economically successful being vilified or at least generally disliked by other groups - I think that's much of the reason so many viscerally dislike Highland Park.

My son has a good friend, from a wealthy background, who next year will graduate, hopefully, with a sociology degree and poor grades. He is in for a big surprise.

but is he really in for a surprise? One thing I do stand by is that like I said earlier, at TCU I met many kids just like your son's friend. They picked the easiest courses possible so that they had ample time to spend partying...why? because they were already guaranteed a job at daddy's firm upon graduation. I know the whole class warfare thing irks you EDS, but I have to say I resented the hell out of those kids. I had to maintain a high gpa otherwise I lose my scholarship and get kicked out of school. Upon graduation I had to really struggle to get into the corporate world...and here is lazy as$ over here sleeping through his classes because a) he wasnt here on scholarship, dad paid full price b) he already had his future mapped out and prepared for him. The fact is, your son's friend has similar buddies on campuses all across the state and the country. This is why I sometimes get annoyed at the Parkies. yeah I know that life isnt fair but that doesnt mean that I have to like it.

Now are all rich kids like this? No. There are some who do not take their parents wealth for granted and work hard. (Oddly enough, I found that the girls tended to take school more seriously even the rich ones although there were exceptions)
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,573 posts, read 2,303,131 times
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Originally Posted by Dr. Jake Oil View Post
Whether it is or isn't arrogant, the point remains. The state systematically takes money from a number of districts (including DISD!) and gives it to other districts, presumably in an effort to increase the educational standard and provide an adequate education to all of the kids across the state. Instead this money is used for PR, football stadiums, new buildings, and other diversions. If the Robin hood funds were used to hire 50 new teachers and we heard how the teacher/student ratio went from 35:1 to 20:1 and they now have a 90% graduation rate up from 60% etc.. I might say, well, that's money well spent.



Even if it is being spent on educational material/teachers, the problem in those areas isn't with the teachers or educational materials. As in the thread I started on the differences between HPHS and Woodrow Wilson HS, the difference is not in the building or the teachers or the football stadium, it's in parental involvement, home life, and economic stability. Something a new stadium in Laredo isn't going to fix or even address. It's just flat out waste.
I agree with you here. Personally my solution is harsh but I would say that every school should implement the "school within a school" system like Woodrow does. Separate the academically promising from the deadbeats. pour the money/teachers into the promising and leave the rest to serve their time in school till they get out face reality. To remove claims of bias, make entry into the "bright school" merit based, You take the test, score over a certain bench mark, boom you're in. Maybe put extra effort into marketing these students with colleges so that they get a chance to go to college. That way even the worst schools in the hood can say that they are pushing some kids into college. It's better than the current system where everyone is mired in the same mediocrity.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:33 PM
 
256 posts, read 367,074 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
I agree with you here. Personally my solution is harsh but I would say that every school should implement the "school within a school" system like Woodrow does. Separate the academically promising from the deadbeats. pour the money/teachers into the promising and leave the rest to serve their time in school till they get out face reality. To remove claims of bias, make entry into the "bright school" merit based, You take the test, score over a certain bench mark, boom you're in. Maybe put extra effort into marketing these students with colleges so that they get a chance to go to college. That way even the worst schools in the hood can say that they are pushing some kids into college. It's better than the current system where everyone is mired in the same mediocrity.
I'm not sure I'd phrase it as a dichotomy between the academically promising and the "deadbeats," but there IS a growing debate in education about the need to stop pushing or pretending that "college for all" is realistic or necessary.

Many people think that rather than herd the nonacademic into the Algebra for Dummies holding pens, er, classes until they graduate with no education and no skills, there should be a more robust system of vocational training, internships, etc. for kids to be tracked into starting in the early high school years, similar to what some European countries do.

There is nothing wrong with not being "academically talented," as long as these kids leave school with a skill that they can use to support themselves. And I've got to say, my plumber probably makes more than I do (and probably has better job security than the guy with a degree working for Acme Corporation). The military used to be a good way for lackluster students to get job skills but this has understandably been a less popular option in recent years.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:55 PM
 
7,312 posts, read 8,149,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
but is he really in for a surprise? One thing I do stand by is that like I said earlier, at TCU I met many kids just like your son's friend. They picked the easiest courses possible so that they had ample time to spend partying...why? because they were already guaranteed a job at daddy's firm upon graduation. I know the whole class warfare thing irks you EDS, but I have to say I resented the hell out of those kids. I had to maintain a high gpa otherwise I lose my scholarship and get kicked out of school. Upon graduation I had to really struggle to get into the corporate world...and here is lazy as$ over here sleeping through his classes because a) he wasnt here on scholarship, dad paid full price b) he already had his future mapped out and prepared for him. The fact is, your son's friend has similar buddies on campuses all across the state and the country. This is why I sometimes get annoyed at the Parkies. yeah I know that life isnt fair but that doesnt mean that I have to like it.

Now are all rich kids like this? No. There are some who do not take their parents wealth for granted and work hard. (Oddly enough, I found that the girls tended to take school more seriously even the rich ones although there were exceptions)
One:

The surprise is that this kid isn't going to work for his dad in concert with the suddenly intense realization that his job prospects are limited. This kid is very bright and I think he'll land on his feet - it'll take a while. He asked me if he could come work for me I said sure I will need a new fork lift driver about then at maybe $10.50 hr. (little skill needed simple work). He said no I really want a better paying front office job. I said so do the last 50 people who sent in resumes and they each have some level of experience.

He's really concerned about all this.

I suggested that he do a few things.
1. Hit the books very hard now. Employers are impressed with sharp upturns in academic performance - I certainly am.
2. Take the first set of new better grades and talk to his old man about borrowing some money to get a real degree maybe an MBA from somewhere. If the dad says no, and I think he will, the kid will have to get a real job of some sort as his parent's money and his dependance on them makes normal student loans out of the question for a while.
3. I also told him that he will be fine but the tough lesson is that successful people do not screw around much.


Two:
I make a lot of money and have for a number of years. Currently my wife earns more than me as well. Early on my wife and I lived like paupers, while each earning nice incomes - no vacations, crappy cars, crappy rent houses etc. We saved like squirrels and we invested. Fast forward a lot of years and we are what a lot of people would consider rich. While my wife and I deferred and invested several friends partied, took vacations, bought sweet cars etc. A few of those people are now very bitter as things have not worked out so well for them. Should I have to pay for their mistakes? Should I have to pay for the guy my age who never tried to finish high school let alone college now that he is broke? Or poor by our new standards of poor (high speed internet, big screens, nice cars, fat and still poor?).


Three:
My son has never known any real want. He's never been hungry, laking a doctor when needed etc. He's traveled a lot. He's enjoyed playing sports that we've paid for. We've paid for all of his education expenses to private schools. Many would consider him spoiled. However, my deal with him has always been you earn great marks and I will pay the bill. He has a scholarship that he has maintained throughout college. He has a 4.0 in bio/pre-med and just scored a 38 on a practice MCAT. Sorry for the parental gloating - but my point is that not all "rich" kids are lazy underachieving brats. Frankly, the data shows that the kids of high achieves become high achievers themselves at high rates. My son has several "rich kid" friends who are on their ways to becoming doctors, two at the Naval Academy, one at MIT, another at Stanford and all of these kids are academic over-achievers. Maybe its being around a lot of private school kids - but all of my son's friends from high school are doing really really well save two.



I think the real issue is that HP is a place of success more of us need to embrace that and strive for that and no one should take umbrage with their successes.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:56 PM
 
7,312 posts, read 8,149,428 times
Reputation: 5406
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
I agree with you here. Personally my solution is harsh but I would say that every school should implement the "school within a school" system like Woodrow does. Separate the academically promising from the deadbeats. pour the money/teachers into the promising and leave the rest to serve their time in school till they get out face reality. To remove claims of bias, make entry into the "bright school" merit based, You take the test, score over a certain bench mark, boom you're in. Maybe put extra effort into marketing these students with colleges so that they get a chance to go to college. That way even the worst schools in the hood can say that they are pushing some kids into college. It's better than the current system where everyone is mired in the same mediocrity.
I think we are not very far from having to do just this.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:05 PM
 
7,312 posts, read 8,149,428 times
Reputation: 5406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramona72 View Post
I'm not sure I'd phrase it as a dichotomy between the academically promising and the "deadbeats," but there IS a growing debate in education about the need to stop pushing or pretending that "college for all" is realistic or necessary.

Many people think that rather than herd the nonacademic into the Algebra for Dummies holding pens, er, classes until they graduate with no education and no skills, there should be a more robust system of vocational training, internships, etc. for kids to be tracked into starting in the early high school years, similar to what some European countries do.

There is nothing wrong with not being "academically talented," as long as these kids leave school with a skill that they can use to support themselves. And I've got to say, my plumber probably makes more than I do (and probably has better job security than the guy with a degree working for Acme Corporation). The military used to be a good way for lackluster students to get job skills but this has understandably been a less popular option in recent years.
You bring up a great point. My plumber, who has become a fast friend over the last couple of years, is case in point. This guy has a 9th grade education. He is very bright and very well read, though. But he also, in his opinion and mine, has severe but never medically diagnosed ADD/ADHD. Through exceptionally hard work and exceptionally good work for years he has built a great business. He is proof that school beyond a certain level is not for everyone.
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