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Old 03-05-2014, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,825 posts, read 4,440,214 times
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Props for not getting upset, I couldn't help myself! There are a lot of strong opinions on this board from time to time, well lets me honest...ALL THE TIME.
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:33 AM
 
19,545 posts, read 17,806,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyLawyer View Post
So, from the thread in which we were introduced, you seem to place A LOT of stock on SAT scores. Baylor, the 75th ranked school in the national university category in US NEWS, has the following SAT score data for the 25th and 75th percentiles of admitted students:

Baylor Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile
SAT Critical Reading: 550 / 660
SAT Math: 570 / 670
SAT Writing: 530 / 650

You'll have to excuse me, and by this I mean no disrespect to Baylor, you or your son, or to anyone who attended there, but those are relatively blue collar SAT stats, and they are nowhere near Ivy League or MIT standards ... I'll say it again - not even close. So, based on your previous comments about the SAT, and the doomed fate of your "friend's" daughter who did poorly by average 520 on each section, how exactly should we expect Baylor kids to do when competing with Harvard and MIT kids? Because you need to be at or over 2200 to have any real shot at getting in those schools.


I have to admit that I am surprised by your position in the other thread (which was locked before I could reply to your dodging response) vis a vis the fact that your son attended Baylor. Sure, it's an ok school, but the truth is, attending Baylor probably isn't any different than attending Texas A&M or Arizona State: it isn't going to make any difference in one's life opportunities and will depend entirely on how one does at each school.

I would have guessed with your post content that your son was a Rice graduate or something in that echelon of academia. Rice is the truly elite school in Texas, and it's by a long shot. It is the ONLY Ivy League equivalent school in that state. Your kid competed at a school with A LOT of kids whose SAT scores were not far off from that which your "friend's" daughter achieved. I ask again: why do you tell people that low SAT scores means dreams are permanently crushed, careers are permanently limited and that it shows a proxy for native intelligence?

Lady, send your daughter to school maximizing these three variables as best you can: national reputation and resources, cost and her own happiness and where you and she believe, based on your best judgment, she will be happy and successful. Don't try and find the best biology department someone on the internet says you need to find, and go with the best school factoring in the other two things. Why? She may be a doc. She may not. Plenty of kids start college saying med school, then don't do it for a variety of good reasons not relating to "I couldn't hack it." She may want to do something else. UT Austin is a great school. I can't see how you go wrong there.
I'm not sure I've ever responded to the same post twice, LOL. I'll attempt to be a bit more specific.

Running in order with your comments.
1. My son had a number of excellent undergraduate options. He chose Baylor for a number of reasons including a great scholarship, undergraduate research opportunities at Baylor, continuing part time and summer research opportunities in Dallas. But the biggies were Baylor has been cranking out large numbers into medical schools for many decades and every year they send a good number of kids into UTSW. He wants to live and work in Dallas, most MD students live and work close to where they completed residency. UTSW/Parkland has a good number of residencies that UTSW students fill etc. etc. So far his plan has worked perfectly.
1a. Back to SATs across a school. Any medium to larger school that has a large number of students in one of two particular fields will have decreased aggregate SAT scores. Baylor has both. Regardless of that other kid's SAT scores had no impact on my son's scores.

2. My son competes with grads from Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Brown, Stanford, BC, Cornell, MIT, Duke, Tufts, McGill, Yale, U-Chicago, Notre Dame, NYU, Washington University, Notre Dame, Princeton, Berkeley, Michigan, Rice, Dartmouth, Emory, UVA, Penn, Northwestern etc. and then schools like Texas A&M Kingsville and my son is killing it. The idea that kids from schools with lesser reputations are automatically lesser students is officially debunked. My boy was accepted to a good number of those schools but passed as well.

3. Grades seem to measure tough mindedness, time commitment, intensity of study, organizational skills etc. High stakes tests measure retention and execution under time pressure and expectational pressures, generally in an uncomfortable setting. When my son took the MCAT one girl peed herself, one guy just got up and left. My son came home and took a several hour nap - he said he felt hungover.
3A. Regarding my daughter's friend. For years she's wanted to be a doctor. A kid having grades in the ~97th percentile but SATs just over the 50th percentile is let's say unusual. And no matter what it seems like I'm on her side and I want her to do well. She was more or less turned down for all biology programs she applied to. What would her chances be to go from where she is to ultimately becoming a doc? If she adopted the study-life of a Cistercian Monk her chances would be awful add in the MCAT pressure given her SAT scores.

4. I went to Rice and I can flatly guarantee you my son is a much, much better student than I was, we're not even close.

5. I find this this general topic fascinating. Academics are the great equalizer.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:17 AM
 
19,545 posts, read 17,806,917 times
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Originally Posted by Dodi1 View Post
Thanks Big G and EDS for your input and guidance. My kid got accepted to TAMS. He will be going as he is done with Calculus here in 10th grade in PISD. He will have a chance to take more challenging math classes.
Thanks again and will seek your guidance in future too.
By the way, it looks like 6 TAMS kids were admitted into UTSW in 2013. I don't know the breakdown between the MD, MD+Ph.D or Ph.D programs, however. I'll try to get better information.
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Old 03-06-2014, 11:51 AM
 
19,545 posts, read 17,806,917 times
Reputation: 17061
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyLawyer View Post
No, I'm not trying to get the threads locked. I just found your attitude in the other thread to be, shall we say, inapposite to your actual situation. The various comments you made, which I shall not rehash here, are more typical of what you hear from people who hail from super elite academic backgrounds.

As it relates to Baylor's stats, you and I both know that there are many reasons that influence those numbers. State programs, affiliations with med schools, multi-state arrangements, etc. Doesn't change the fact that junior did what he did in a talent pool that is not as deep as, say, that which exists at Rice.

I'll tell you what. I think we have stumbled onto at least one interesting item of discussion, and that is this question of program specificity and long-term track record of interest vs. (for lack of a better phrase) the well educated, all around smarty who has satisfied the premed requirements hailing from a good school. I'm guessing in this day and age of pragmatism and budgets you may be right and that the Texas medical school application system favors what you advise.

That said, we still have to wonder about what the kids (and there are legions of them) who hail from Swarthmore, Wellesley, Bowdoin, Whitman, Pomona, Bates, Carleton, Macalester, Reed, Mount Holyoke, Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, etc. etc. etc. look like in the admissions process?

How do those kids look and compare in the med school admissions process across the board? I know two things about them: (1) they attended schools that are both very difficult to get into and which de-emphasize "track programs" or anything that looks like or smacks of the vocational or practical; and (2) they matriculate to med school in droves and the %s are startling. That tells me, very generally at least, that med schools want generally smart kids with a good, sound and broad education (albeit with the technical pre-med science qualifications) of the type one acquires at a solid liberal arts college.

Before anyone says it, no, I didn't attend such a place. I was a big state school kid. But I married one. They are different, as was their education. You can't hide from rigorous writing in those places. You have to be broadly educated whether you want to or not, even if you just want to study chem or biology. You can't major in business, accounting, physical therapy, restaurant management, pharmacy and that sort of thing at those places.

So I wonder - if your kid REALLY wants to max their med school chances, are you better off obtaining what at least appears to be a broad education (albeit one that focuses on a science curriculum)?

I'll ask the people I know. My mom is friends with one of the Deans at the University of Washington school of medicine, which as I mentioned is a perennial top 10, sometimes top 5, school. I would take his view as representative.

I know this. If I were on the review committee, I'd pick as between two kids who are equally qualified the kid with the more diverse educational and life background. I think of a kid like the OPs, who starts all this clinical rotation crap in 9th frickin' grade, and I just think it would be hard for me to not roll my eyes. Just being honest there.
1. Baylor has no "affiliation" with UTSW. Baylor is a private Baptist University. UTSW is part of the UT system along with UT Houston, UT MD Anderson in Houston and several others others. For that matter Baylor University has no direct affiliation with Baylor Medical School and hasn't for a number of years.

2. My son would have done fine at Rice, Wash U or anywhere else. His MCAT scores prove that.

3. I'm all for broad-based educations. I find it interesting that you believe kids who study say biochemistry or biomedical engineering are generally less well prepared for medical school than kids from Wellesley etc. I can find nothing about medical school admissions statistics anywhere that goes along with that sentiment.
Next time you have a few check out Harvard School of Medicine's webpage regarding admissions.
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
13 posts, read 21,517 times
Reputation: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by eds_ View Post
i'm not sure i've ever responded to the same post twice, lol. I'll attempt to be a bit more specific.

Running in order with your comments.
1. my son had a number of excellent undergraduate options. He chose baylor for a number of reasons including a great scholarship, undergraduate research opportunities at baylor, continuing part time and summer research opportunities in dallas. But the biggies were baylor has been cranking out large numbers into medical schools for many decades and every year they send a good number of kids into utsw. He wants to live and work in dallas, most md students live and work close to where they completed residency. Utsw/parkland has a good number of residencies that utsw students fill etc. Etc. So far his plan has worked perfectly.

doesn't matter. He accomplished his task at a school with a student talent profile that is average. The competition was not as stiff. Period. Given your view of the sat, and all that it means, along with your logical style, i cannot fathom how you can debate this point. As you say, sorry i struck a nerve. And it's not surprising i did; we all get a little defensive when it comes to our kids. I understand. That's why you got some push back from some us after starting the other thread with this: "it came up that's she's going to brand-x texas 2nd rate at best university (it's small to boot). I refrained from joking or quizzing but the moment she left i asked my daughter what's up with that?" (emphasis added by me) you see, my point is that your son's alma mater can also be considered second rate at best when compared to a lot of other institutions out there. It's all relative, which is why it's best not to get too tied up in academic elitism. There are a lot of smart people out there, and they tend to congregate.


1a. Back to sats across a school. Any medium to larger school that has a large number of students in one of two particular fields will have decreased aggregate sat scores. Baylor has both. Regardless of that other kid's sat scores had no impact on my son's scores.

not any. There are several other big schools which much higher numbers. Michigan, berkeley and ucla for starters. I didn't say that the other scores have an effect on your son's scores; obviously they don't. That's what we call a strawman. The point is he earned his undergraduate degree in a place with less talent than exists in many other places. I'm not judging, mind you; this is all contextual, as you well know.

2. My son competes with grads from johns hopkins, harvard, brown, stanford, bc, cornell, mit, duke, tufts, mcgill, yale, u-chicago, notre dame, nyu, washington university, notre dame, princeton, berkeley, michigan, rice, dartmouth, emory, uva, penn, northwestern etc. And then schools like texas a&m kingsville and my son is killing it. The idea that kids from schools with lesser reputations are automatically lesser students is officially debunked. My boy was accepted to a good number of those schools but passed as well.

good for him. Congratulations. But i did not proffer the idea that you are implying. That is your second strawman. My point in bringing that up has been clearly articulated above. Beyond that, are you telling me your boy was admitted to ivy league schools and places like chicago and northwestern and turned them down to attend baylor? I could see if baylor were a public school and the residency tuition would thus weigh in on cost, but private baylor over private top 5? Given all that's been said, you'll have to forgive my skepticism. If it's true, he was not advised well unless there's something else going on that made it compelling for bu.

3. Grades seem to measure tough mindedness, time commitment, intensity of study, organizational skills etc. High stakes tests measure retention and execution under time pressure and expectational pressures, generally in an uncomfortable setting. When my son took the mcat one girl peed herself, one guy just got up and left. My son came home and took a several hour nap - he said he felt hungover.
3a. Regarding my daughter's friend. For years she's wanted to be a doctor. A kid having grades in the ~97th percentile but sats just over the 50th percentile is let's say unusual. And no matter what it seems like i'm on her side and i want her to do well. She was more or less turned down for all biology programs she applied to. What would her chances be to go from where she is to ultimately becoming a doc? If she adopted the study-life of a cistercian monk her chances would be awful add in the mcat pressure given her sat scores.

you are lumping "grades" into a pretty big and sweeping category, which is not surprising. My middle daughter is at my state's flagship ib program and is a diploma candidate. You simply cannot swim in that crowd and excel without having some smarts. You can't just work your way to a 3.9 there. I get the fact that externalities can and do affect high stakes test performance. That's the thing about your posts that has me confused/skeptical of motive. You ask the question originally as if puzzled, but then with each succeeding post you convey pretty strong conclusions about the topic. I don't understand. If you know a lot about it, why ask? That, coupled with some odd and inaccurate generalizations, are why there was some push back on this topic when you brought it up. She had a bad day on the sat. Sometimes maturity helps with these things. Maybe she won't be as wound up the next time she takes a big test. Who knows? I would think the things i'm saying here are obvious to you, and i suspect they are. Again, that's why i wonder about agenda. what are her chances? I have no idea; I also don't think you really do either. People mature and change. **** happens. Hopefully there aren't people in her life saying to her the things you're saying, because if you want to make this a foregone conclusion, go ahead and tell her she'll never be able to clear the hurdles to be a doc. She also may not want to be a doc or a PT a year from now. Kids are funny that way. Go figure.

4. I went to rice and i can flatly guarantee you my son is a much, much better student than i was, we're not even close.

no, the truth is, you probably can't flatly guarantee any such thing. First, he's your son, and now that we're talking about him, and not someone else's kid, your passion and natural bias is showing through in your post like a red cape. It's not quite as fun. Truth is, none of us as parents can be purely objective about our own kids. Moreover, i can't see how you would be qualified to make that categorical assessment in any event, given some of the questions you've posed, and claims you've made. You're clearly not an expert, and he's your kid. You don't really know. Btw, congrats on attending rice. Great school. Surprised you didn't bring it up earlier.

5. I find this this general topic fascinating. Academics are the great equalizer.

Me too. I also find you fascinating. You have a following around here, and there are a lot of people who appear to hang on your every word. I suspect the reason for that is your logical and (seemingly) dispassionate style, along with a tendency to sound pretty darn authoritative when you share an opinion. You should handle that influence carefully. As counsel, i learned long ago that people actually go out there and rely on what i've told them. It's a big responsibility.
[/i]

Last edited by HuskyLawyer; 03-06-2014 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
13 posts, read 21,517 times
Reputation: 35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
1. Baylor has no "affiliation" with UTSW. Baylor is a private Baptist University. UTSW is part of the UT system along with UT Houston, UT MD Anderson in Houston and several others others. For that matter Baylor University has no direct affiliation with Baylor Medical School and hasn't for a number of years.

2. My son would have done fine at Rice, Wash U or anywhere else. His MCAT scores prove that.

3. I'm all for broad-based educations. I find it interesting that you believe kids who study say biochemistry or biomedical engineering are generally less well prepared for medical school than kids from Wellesley etc. I can find nothing about medical school admissions statistics anywhere that goes along with that sentiment.
Next time you have a few check out Harvard School of Medicine's webpage regarding admissions.
For a logician, you sure do employ a lot of strawmen and red herrings in your debate.

1. Didn't say it did. What I said was that there are many reasons why a particular school might produce a lot of this or that. Washington State University, which is not an elite academic institution on any measure, sends a lot of kids to the University of Washington School of Medicine, one of the top medical schools and centers in the country. It's not because WSU is a bastion of academic elitism; it's because it's the other big state school in our state, and presumably the medical school has an obligation or a mission to take a certain number of them. No need to get defensive.

2. I'm sure he would have. It's not as fun when it's your kid up for discussion is it? Again, I didn't say he wouldn't. What I DID say, for the millionth time, was that he went to school and competed against a lower tier of academic talent, as measured by SAT scores. And to hear you tell it, that means he was also going up against lower IQs than he would have had he chosen one of the many elite options you tell me he had. Again, nothing to be defensive about.

3. Where did I say, or even imply, anything of the kind? Please show me, and I'll own up to it. By the way, you can study biochemistry at Wellesley too. For a guy who passes himself off as some kind of education guru, this point has been difficult to get across to you. You either want to have an intellectually honest discussion about this or you don't. Which is it going to be? I think what gets you stuck is that you've seen your son's path to success, and you want to somehow cement that as THE way to the end. It is an incredibly narrow point of view. That is what I am trying to tell you. I started practice in a large law firm, and there was a guy a couple years ahead of me, on partnership track, whose Dad was a doc. He practiced law for a few years, decided it wasn't for him and that he wanted to help people instead of corporations. True story. His words. UCLA undergrad/Duke law. Did not have the pre-reqs to apply. Enrolled at UW and just took the science classes needed to apply. Took, I don't know, 1.5 or 2 years. Whatever it was. He did it. Now he's a doc.
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
13 posts, read 21,517 times
Reputation: 35
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Originally Posted by bencronin04 View Post
Props for not getting upset, I couldn't help myself! There are a lot of strong opinions on this board from time to time, well lets me honest...ALL THE TIME.
hey, I asked for it. when someone serves up a meatball right over the plate, you gotta take a swing!
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:23 PM
 
88 posts, read 172,436 times
Reputation: 52
Time out! Since you guys have it all figured out so please answer a question for me.

Q. Taking both Choir and Theater has a negative impact on your GPA but it adds to EC, what's your advice? Keep both or drop one for another AP?
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
13 posts, read 21,517 times
Reputation: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverGold View Post
Time out! Since you guys have it all figured out so please answer a question for me.

Q. Taking both Choir and Theater has a negative impact on your GPA but it adds to EC, what's your advice? Keep both or drop one for another AP?
No, I do not have "it all" figured out. Unfortunately, I think my friend has confused his narrow experience and a stoic tone with having done just that.

How can I possibly answer this question? Who are we talking about? You? Your kid? Someone else's kid?
What is important to them? What do they like to do? Happy and engaged people tend to be more successful in the long run than people trying to give their parents something to brag about.

I you or this person wants to go to an elite college (for any reason), then you are going to need a good GPA and you are going to need to achieve it in context of a rigorous course of study.

On the other hand, schools look for indicators of passion and commitment, and they like excellence in almost any endeavor.

It's a balancing act. But if your course load is otherwise light, and your GPA needs some work, then yeah, it'll probably help to go take an AP Physics class and get an A as opposed to doubling up on the fun stuff.

If you have course rigor and you're doing well, AND if you enjoy those things and doing it will help you say something about yourself when you apply to college, then that's ok too.

Listen to people who pawn "formula" approaches to things like this and take it with a grain of salt. At my age, I've seen and come to know a lot of people who have skinned the cat a number of different ways. That's the beauty of this country. We haven't quite managed to turn the US into a 1980s Japan, where your entire life's fate was sealed based on how you did in secondary school.
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:46 PM
 
2,206 posts, read 4,727,588 times
Reputation: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyLawyer View Post
2. I'm sure he would have. It's not as fun when it's your kid up for discussion is it? Again, I didn't say he wouldn't. What I DID say, for the millionth time, was that he went to school and competed against a lower tier of academic talent, as measured by SAT scores. And to hear you tell it, that means he was also going up against lower IQs than he would have had he chosen one of the many elite options you tell me he had. Again, nothing to be defensive about.
There are a number of issues here.

You would have to show that the top 2% at Baylor are below the top 2% at the given school of your choice using some objective measure like the MCAT. I would guess that there is a cluster at Baylor near the top end like at any school. I would not make a bet either way without data and would assume that both are very close.

Given the racial/cultural bias at most "elite" schools, there are a lot of white and Asian kids who are settling for state public/private schools. This is what makes comparisons tricky today for the high end elite student groups.

For someone in pre-med at a school with an objective grading rule, and with an elite contingent, the competition will be fierce. Sadly, most of the Ivies do not have an objective A/B rule like many of the "lesser" schools like Baylor or UT.

I know UT did when I was there. Even the lowly SMU MBA school does as well.

But Harvard? Come on? We all know to get in to Harvard ENTITLES you to a life of success!! WHY even try?

Substantiating Fears of Grade Inflation, Dean Says Median Grade at Harvard College Is A-, Most Common Grade Is A | News | The Harvard Crimson

Quote:
The median grade at Harvard College is an A-, and the most frequently awarded mark is an A, Dean of Undergraduate Education Jay M. Harris said on Tuesday afternoon, supporting suspicions that the College employs a softer grading standard than many of its peer institutions.
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