U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas > Dallas
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 02-21-2012, 08:56 AM
 
7,291 posts, read 8,123,957 times
Reputation: 5381

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big G View Post
Never said that. FWIW, the math tracks at Jesuit and PISD are identical:

Standard:
Alg I/Geom/Alg II/Precalc

Honors:
Geom/Alg II/Precalc/AP Calc

(PISD also has a "basic" math track for low-performing kids that Jesuit has no need for.)

This is where you can insert arguments about the superior educational environment of Jesuit leading to enhanced learning. That can't easily be quantified, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.



Well, are they? To be clear, we're talking about kids who are beyond the honors track referenced above - those who come into high school with Geometry or more already completed. Most schools, including both Jesuit and pre-MathRocks PISD, can only offer to move the kids up an extra year, then have them take AP Stats (an easier course than AP Calc BC) their senior year.



No, the privates are behind because they don't offer as many high-level math classes.

Offerings beyond Precalc:

St. Mark's:
AP Calc AB & BC
Calc (non-AP)
Stats AP
Independent Study

Jesuit:
AP Calc AB & BC
Stats AP

Greenhill
AP Calc AB & BC
Stats AP
Diff. Eq. and Multi-variable Calculus
Independent Study

PISD's MathRocks, cool name or no, beats all these selections - only Greenhill comes close.

1. Kids at Jesuit as 9th graders can test into any math class the school offers - I just asked them.

2. About Jesuit and others being behind - kids at Jesuit off the math track to the top side often take math classes through SMU - my son did this along with at least a couple of friends. I don't know if she is still there but for a good while a lady who taught calculus at Jesuit's was an SMU professor ergo the tie in at least in part.

3. I hope Mathrocks turns out to be as great as you anticipate. It's too early to know now.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-21-2012, 09:01 AM
 
7,291 posts, read 8,123,957 times
Reputation: 5381
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80 View Post
I would agree with this assessment. It takes a very specific student to choose a TAMS - usually one that is academically one-dimensional and on the awkward / outcast end of the social spectrum. To me, to be considered "creme de la creme", a student is well-rounded academically (ie, even if they're a STEM genius, they also are well-read and culturally engaged), sociable, and has some non-academic outside interests (athletics, art, theatre, volunteer work, etc).

The brightest buy in my HP class - who is now a professor- stayed at HP as did his small circle of STEM- minded kids. All have gone on to become very successful professionally and all but the professor series to have popped out of their "shells" and were surprisingly "normal" to very outgoing socially @ our 10-year reunion.

The two who left to go to TAMS are just engineers and haven't achieved the level of success the ones who stayed at HP have.

I think TAMS is great for meeting the needs of a gifted student from Little Elm or Granbury or some other third rate school system without resources for kids like these. Most of the bigger and better districts can appropriately serve gifted STEM kids through independent study, a broad AP curriculum, and dual credit through UTD or SMU.

Now - back to OP's question, what pre-school should gifted 5 year old attend?!


I"m sure the kids at TAMS are thrilled that you think they are all dorks. Wow.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2012, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,346 posts, read 5,794,768 times
Reputation: 2284
Catching up here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockDad View Post
I reviewed your AMc stats. Out of 181 kids, it appears approximately 20 of them are female. Is this percentage consistent with the math rocks program? If so, can you really contend that it is a superior program if it does not inspire young women to join?
MathRocks admission is strictly based on perfomance on the Math results from the MAP testing given in PISD. Kids are required to be 2 sigmas above the PISD mean (3 sigmas for 3rd grade admission), making the cutoff the top 2.5% in math performance. I have no idea what the male/female breakdown is - no gender check is applied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adixyz View Post
TAMS is great but you lose the high school experience. The only benefit I see is going to Texas state public colleges and getting 1/2 -2 years of college education saved depending on the major. Most TAMS folks probably save 1 year. This works mostly for those who want to go to medical school but a year or two is not much in the long run.
Yep. In fact, pre-meds planning to remain in-state derive the most benefit from TAMS. MIT, for example, gives you jack squat for all your TAMS credits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I get that a lot of kids don't want to go for social reasons.
Exactly. A lot of kids want to experience the "fun" of high school and aren't willing to sacrifice that. Others aren't emotionally mature enough to fly the coop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I"m sure the kids at TAMS are thrilled that you think they are all dorks. Wow.
What? Two posts in a row that I'm in agreement with EDS_ ???

I don't think a standard "awkward/outcast" kid has the cojones to pack up and go live in a dorm room away from his/her friends and family at age 16. It's usually those who are unusually mature and already career-focused in an adult manner - a 25-year-old in a 16-year-old body.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80 View Post
Now - back to OP's question, what pre-school should gifted 5 year old attend?!
You expect us to stay even remotely on-topic? How quaint.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2012, 11:24 AM
 
1,212 posts, read 1,770,697 times
Reputation: 1073
[quote=Big G;23077852]Catching up here:



MathRocks admission is strictly based on perfomance on the Math results from the MAP testing given in PISD. Kids are required to be 2 sigmas above the PISD mean (3 sigmas for 3rd grade admission), making the cutoff the top 2.5% in math performance. I have no idea what the male/female breakdown is - no gender check is applied.

I think that the original post was which school is best for a gifted 5 year. Based on comments made by the original poster, the child is a girl. Subsequently you stated that the MathRocks program was superior to any program in private school. However, another poster offline told me that her daughter did not feel comfortable being one of a couple of girls in the MathRocks programs and thus declined it. Traditionally speaking, most high schools have pushed math/science on boys and reading/language arts on girls. Obviously, one huge advantage of Hockaday is that no gender bias is shown discouraging young ladies from STEM courses.

Based on your AMC stats, approximtely 12% of the test takers are girls. Moreover, approximately 85% have asian or indian surnames. Based on the numbers alone, the MathRocks program might be the greatest thing going for an Asian or Indian 10 year old boy from Plano, but I hardly think it competes against Greenhill, Hockaday, etc for a 5 year old girl.

Finally, one reason that people go to Hockaday is the diversity. I love that my daughters are in class with girls of all ethnic backgrounds and religions. The success of a program is not measured solely by scores (although it is an important objective test), but also by the impact on the students lives. Look at the JETS program. It is really cool and obviously had a big impact on the women I referenced yesterday.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2012, 12:23 PM
 
105 posts, read 249,407 times
Reputation: 108
I don't suppose any of you could let all this go?

Public vs private. TAMS vs non-TAMS. It's going to be a matter of personal preference no matter how you slice it. There are no wrong answers. Whatever matches your own family's values, needs, and pocketbook.

HockDad, unfortunately, girls are going to have to get used to being kind of outnumbered for some time to come if they want to pursue a STEM field. The offline poster who said her daughter felt too uncomfortable being one of the only girls in MathRocks can certainly choose to decline the opportunity. But the fact is, girls (and women) are outnumbered in those fields. In college classes. In the workplace. And as you pointed out, apparently in some high schools (PISD's MathRocks). I mean, it may be true, for one reason or another, that an equal number of girls is simply not interested in pursuing math at that level. The home environment, the school environment, our culture in general, genetics -- they may all play a part in that phenomenon. A girl who is uncomfortable taking high level math in a crowd of boys may be more comfortable learning at an all girls school like Hockaday. That could well be the best place for her. But eventually, she's going to have to be surrounded by a whole mess of boys if she wants to pursue STEM.

Plus, your offline poster friend is just a sample of one.

And, in our experience with public schools, the stereotypes are pretty much gone -- the schools here don't push math/science on boys and reading/language arts on girls. Education is very 'unified' and 'progressive' here. I don't know why Flower Mound's high schools would be any different than other great public high schools in the surrounding metroplex communities. I would just guess that the majority of girls and boys (and their parents) are content with the fairness of Plano's education as well.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2012, 01:35 PM
 
1,212 posts, read 1,770,697 times
Reputation: 1073
SimpleLife2- I agree that girls are going to have to "get used" to the fact that STEM fields are male dominated. However, the arguments you made (cultural, genetics (really?), home environment) are the same arguments made against women 40 years ago joining the fields of law, medicine, accounting and finance.

However, the question posed is which school is best for a 5 year old girl?

Since it is difficult to get a 10 year old girl to go to an all boys birthday party, I think we can safely assume that most 10 year old girls might not enjoy being in a class with 9 boys for every one girl. It is far easier for a college freshman/1st year Engineer/PHD student to "get over it" than a 10 year old girl.

I also find ironic that you state that stereotypes/bias are almost all gone, but the one set of objective numbers we are working on show that 88 percent of the AMC kids are boys and 85% of the students have asian or indian surnames.

Public School can be great. A superior kid is going to do well whether he goes to Hillcrest, Highland Park, or St. Marks. However, if you think the best place for the overall education for a gifted 5 year old girl is in public school, you might need to reconsider your answer.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2012, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,346 posts, read 5,794,768 times
Reputation: 2284
Let me start by saying that I might even agree with your underlying point - that a smart girl would be best served by attending an all-girl school, and Hockaday in particular. Roll with that argument for best results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockDad View Post
Since it is difficult to get a 10 year old girl to go to an all boys birthday party, I think we can safely assume that most 10 year old girls might not enjoy being in a class with 9 boys for every one girl.

I also find ironic that you state that stereotypes/bias are almost all gone, but the one set of objective numbers we are working on show that 88 percent of the AMC kids are boys and 85% of the students have asian or indian surnames.
Would it be rude to point out that the correct ratio here would be 7:1, not 9:1?

My kid isn't even in MathRocks - we didn't live in the pilot program area, and now that it's district-wide, he's too old. But he IS in a PISD advanced math class, with about 60 kids across two classrooms, all in the same boat - kids who, by and large, would have qualified for MathRocks if it had been available to them. Point being - that's a reasonable approximation to the MathRocks demographic. Yes, he's in the minority. But there are both white kids and girls in there - even some white girls! It's nowhere near as drastic as you make it out to be - probably a 3:1 split Asian/non-Asian, and a 3:1 split boy:girl.

Why the Asian dominance? Genetics? Tiger Moms? Selective immigration policies? Maybe all of those. Not going down that road.

Why the boy:girl disparity? See references below. One expects to find more outlier boys than girls, and that effect will become larger as you go further out. For example, the AMC results (which indicate the highest performers, not just those taking part - a double filtering, if you will) are a good example of that. Far more than 12% of the AMC test-takers are girls.

Quote:
In fact, males and females appear equally intelligent, on average. But on standardized intelligence tests, more males than females get off-the-chart test scores—in both directions. The greater variance of males on intelligence tests is one of the best-established findings in psychometric literature. More males are mentally deficient, and more are freakishly brilliant. The difference in variation isn't huge, but it is large enough and consistent enough that a fair selection process should produce more boys than girls in a gifted and talented program.
http://www.psych.umn.edu/courses/spr.../deary2003.pdf

Are There More Girl Geniuses? — The American Magazine


Quote:
However, if you think the best place for the overall education for a gifted 5 year old girl is in public school, you might need to reconsider your answer.
We lost the plot for that one several pages ago.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2012, 07:56 PM
 
105 posts, read 249,407 times
Reputation: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockDad
However, if you think the best place for the overall education for a gifted 5 year old girl is in public school, you might need to reconsider your answer.
Yes, HockDad, that's what I'm saying. My kids are in college after attending public schools their whole lives. I've had plenty of time to 'reconsider.'

Here in the metroplex, there are a number of superior public schools. And I happen to believe that the best place for the overall education of a gifted child is in one of our area's top-performing public schools. (That is, barring any behavior problems or special needs that sometimes arise with truly gifted children.)

But even if a child has special needs, public school districts can often provide superior special education services when compared to private schools. In fact, I would guess that special education assistance is better within good, large, public districts than within well-known privates (unless the private was created specifically to address special needs). Large public school districts have more resources. Larger numbers of special needs students warrant a greater variety and quantity of services than smaller numbers of special needs students found at schools like Hockaday or St Marks.

But I digress... I LIKE large, high-performing public schools in great school districts! I think they're great fits for gifted children. They offer fantastic teachers, a boatload of AP courses, a boatload of other courses that meet all sorts of interests, a variety of ways to earn high school credits (zero-hour, dual credit, career centers, etc), a wide variety of student personalities (everybody can find a place to fit in), and huge extracurricular resources, often with great financial backing -- sports, music, theater, leadership, community service, and so on. A gifted student can pursue a huge number of possible interests at a large public. Plus, they're close to home. That mean two things: the kids spend less time on the road commuting, AND the kids go to school with the kids they see after school (in the neighborhood).

And, the price is right! More financial resources for other great things in life!

So, yeah. That's my answer for the OP's 5 year old gifted child -- a really great school district in one of Dallas' surrounding suburbs. I can't say enough good about them.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2012, 08:06 PM
 
105 posts, read 249,407 times
Reputation: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockDad
However, the arguments you made (cultural, genetics (really?), home environment) are the same arguments made against women 40 years ago joining the fields of law, medicine, accounting and finance.
To be fair, HockDad, I said, "The home environment, the school environment, our culture in general, genetics -- they may all play a part in that phenomenon." Scientists who have studied these things for decades still don't know with any certainty what accounts for the differences between girls and boys. I sure don't claim to know why they're different. But it IS true that the number of girls pursuing STEM subjects, from early ages into adulthood, is smaller than the number of boys pursuing the same STEM subjects. The factors I mentioned are the factors that scienctists have studied over the years. To no definitive avail.

That's all I meant to say.

I sure didn't intend to make any argument against women! Women are good!
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2012, 08:39 PM
 
105 posts, read 249,407 times
Reputation: 108
And this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockDad
I also find ironic that you state that stereotypes/bias are almost all gone, but the one set of objective numbers we are working on show that 88 percent of the AMC kids are boys and 85% of the students have asian or indian surnames.
It sounds to me like you're making the assumption that girls aren't taking those tests or courses because they're being held back in some way, due to prejudice or bias.

Do you similarly think there's a bias against white-surnamed boys? Because, as you pointed out, the majority of the AMC students have Asian or Indian surnames. Is that because the white boys are being discriminated against? I think not.

I think what you're seeing is a difference in cultures -- the 'Asian and Indian cultures' may make different choices than 'standard-Caucasion American culture.' (If you know what I mean -- there really isn't a 'standard' in ANY culture, but I think most of us, of all colors, have observed that the 'Asian and Indian cultures,' around here anyway, do make different parenting choices than those in the average 'several-generation, Caucasian American culture,' right? Am I allowed to say that without sounding prejudiced??)

My kids had lots of Asian friends in school and a smaller number of Indian friends. Their Asian friends constantly made verbal comparisons and even jokes about the way their parents were raising them compared to the way most of the several-generation-American-white kids (my own included) were being raised. It's true -- there were generalizations that could be made about my kids' upbringing and their Asian friends' upbringings, and often they were true.

That's what I think you're seeing in those AMC statistics. I don't believe Asian or Indian kids are brighter or more achieving than white kids. Nor that boys are brighter and more achieving than girls. I also don't believe that our public school systems push Asians and Indians, or boys, to take those tests to the detriment of whites or girls. But for multi-faceted reasons, more Asians and Indians, and boys, take the tests. I don't think one can rightfully assume it's because of prejudices against those who don't elect to take them.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Texas > Dallas
View detailed profiles of:
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top