Greenhill vs Hockaday (Dallas, Paris, Andrews: top school, colleges, stats)
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This location talk is funny - it's all a matter of perspective. From here in Plano, everything is turned around. Greenhill is the only high-end private school I ever seriously considered. All the others are SOOOOO far south - nearly halfway to Houston!
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As for the NMSF scores - I will concede that they aren't that relevant as a measure of a high school's curriculum. (Heck, Plano Senior and Plano West get credit for producing huge numbers of these kids, even though the test is taken after less than a month or two of residence at the schools). They ARE a good measure of the intellectual caliber of the student body, and to a lesser extent, the effectiveness of the lower and middle school education.
To that end, I'm not sure how Greenhill is going to "boost their NMSF numbers". Once the kids have done the Karen Dillard thing (and I assume the privates already have their own in-house equivalent), that's about as far as you can artificially "juice" the PSAT results. Beyond that, the particular kids either have the skillz or they don't.
Well boosting the scores can come in a variety of ways. Obviously they are now culling from a better selection of applicants, so the classes should only get smarter. They are also doing optional sat prep classes and will weave grammar and sat related stuff into the lower/middle school curriculum (although to clarify the curriculum will NOT be based around the SAT). But I agree, there are far better metrics than NMSF and its frankly not something I tend to focus much on
Yeah I know I definitely sounded a little hypocritical there. What I meant was, of course you can prefer one to the other but what rubbed me the wrong way was you saying there was such a different world view from Greenhill as opposed to SM/Hock. But it doesnt really matter
I do agree with your comments though, St. Marks does feel like the most "local" of the private schools and has the best location in the North Dallas community. Although I don't think Greenhill is that far, it is certainly a bit more of a drive
The "philosophy" (single sex vs co-ed) is a bigger deal to me than "worldview" (though I still think Greenhill is more liberal than the others, maybe not from an administration/teaching pov as much as a student body/family pov). Worldview is subjective and not worth debating on this forum; philosophy is something just fundamentally opposite at Greenhill vs Hockaday/St Mark's and if we ever go private for schools, it will be for the all-girls/all-boys environment (hence why I said Catholics make a good 2nd choice).
Sure they could. I think you're missing the point about co-ed vs. single-sex. That factor right there reduces the potential pool of applicants by 50%.
Now, if you have the same group of "usual suspects" applying to Greenhill/St. Mark's and Greenhill/Hockaday, respectively, that's going to produce 2x the applicants for Greenhill, compared to the other two. Unless Greenhill has 2x the spots (and, in general, it doesn't), that would, indeed, make Greenhill more competitive than St. Mark's/Hockaday.
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That was my point. Because GH is coed and there are just half the seats for each gender, then it will be mathematically more competitive.
come on. who cares about nmsf numbers. it's based in large part on psat/sat scores! a not very difficult standardized test at that. top kids at the top private schools, with the resources that they have, really should be getting no lower than 2300 on the SATs. i would never judge the quality of a school by reference to scores on a standardized test. that's depressing. really depressing.
Who cares?
First, every private school cares about the numbers. It is one objective test where they can compare themselves against its peers. Second, the school receives publicity (listed in the papers, published on websites, etc.). Finally, students who are NMSF receive scholarships from colleges for the designation. I assure that the colleges care about the number of NMSF that agree to attend.
What objective criteria would you use to evaluate a school?
Although I would agree that NMSF is not the best measure of a school's quality, its undeniable that this is a good thing for St. Marks and that it shows strength in curriculum (as it does at all 3)
Well, actually, it is a measure of the students' quality (admissions process) and then curriculum.
But, NMSF is just a first cut.
Other things come into play like the AMC test participation and results, and then placement in regional and national contests. These show a commitment beyond curriculum of the faculty to go much deeper for the more advanced students.
From my observations, St Marks does have the most rigorous and objective admission process.
I can't comment on either although my history teacher at Bishop's in CA taught at Hockaday before he came to Bishop's (but that was mmmmm years ago).
To the OP, why not visit both (or all) schools and decide which are acceptable to you. Then visit those schools with your child (or children) and see which, if any, of the ones you find acceptable that they'd prefer attending.
First, every private school cares about the numbers. It is one objective test where they can compare themselves against its peers. Second, the school receives publicity (listed in the papers, published on websites, etc.). Finally, students who are NMSF receive scholarships from colleges for the designation. I assure that the colleges care about the number of NMSF that agree to attend.
What objective criteria would you use to evaluate a school?
It must be a Texas thing. I don't mean that in a pejorative way. In my neck of the woods, private school reputation/standing is judged almost solely by college placement. The top schools place approximately 40% to the Ivies. Higher if you include Stanford, MIT, etc. Close to 70% go to the top 25 universities in the nation. I have never heard any school talk about national merit scholars. Almost all of the students who get in to these private schools place in the top 1% to even be seriously considered for admission. SAT scores are of course high. And most of the top universities don't really give a hoot whether you're a NMSF and won't fund anyway. As you may know, more and more schools are opting out of the program. And any private school that needs/seeks publicity is really not worth attending. I feel like this whole debate is a big fish, small pond type of discussion. From my perspective, I had not heard of any of these schools until my relo happened so I have no history or baggage. And my view was that trying to argue that one was better than the other is like splitting hairs. They're all fine. Not great. But above average nationally. But worth the $25K tuition. I would have a harder time justifying $40K tuition. It's one thing to argue that one is choosing Hockaday because they want an all girls environment. It's another thing to argue that Hockaday is clearly superior academically to Greenhill.
The "philosophy" (single sex vs co-ed) is a bigger deal to me than "worldview" (though I still think Greenhill is more liberal than the others, maybe not from an administration/teaching pov as much as a student body/family pov). Worldview is subjective and not worth debating on this forum; philosophy is something just fundamentally opposite at Greenhill vs Hockaday/St Mark's and if we ever go private for schools, it will be for the all-girls/all-boys environment (hence why I said Catholics make a good 2nd choice).
The top schools place approximately 40% to the Ivies. Higher if you include Stanford, MIT, etc. Close to 70% go to the top 25 universities in the nation.
Although you are unimpressed with the college placement records of the top Dallas schools, you have to remember that the class sizes of the Dallas privates are roughly a third of the size of the Northeastern powerhouse prep schools. So when you see, for instance, that Andover has 26 Princeton matriculations compared to 7 at St. Mark's you need to realize that the Andover number should be divided by 3 -- making the numbers much more comparable.
I took a quick look at Exeter and Andover, which conveniently provide very complete college placement statistics. Over the last three years, just under 50% of the classes at Andover and just under 45% of the class at Exeter has matriculated to one of the top 25 schools.
Exact stats are a little harder to come by for Dallas schools. St. Mark's probably provides the most meaningful data for this purpose. St. Mark's provides a list of colleges to which three or more students have matriculated over the last three years. This takes into account roughly 75% of its graduates during that period. Bottom line -- roughly 45% of the St. Mark's grads included in this 75% matriculated at top 25 schools. Doesn't look too different from Exeter and Andover to me -- which isn't surprising considering that the average SAT performance of St. Mark's grads is on par with Exeter and Andover grads as shown in post #7 of this thread.
Well, if you say "unimpressed," it sounds so negative... I'm not impressed or unimpressed. I think the top schools are relatively, again relatively, easier to get into in Dallas (acceptance rates above 20%) and I think the schools provide a fine education. Someone on this board said that many graduates of the top Dallas schools choose to go to colleges in the South rather than head to the coasts. So I get that the Ivy stats will be different. I just took issue with the comment that NMSF numbers are somehow dispositive on the question of what makes a school good.
I'm starting to think I should look at schools that have a higher proportion of people with origins outside of Texas. I think I may be ostracized...
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