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It's not about words. It's about actions and policies. One side wants endless social spending and other handouts that - always across the world with basically no exceptions create a permanent economic underclass (Greece and Israel for but two examples). One side wants rational short term policies than help people find jobs and establish careers creating a culture of independence and confidence.
One side believes that Profits, are more important than people or the planet! and one understands that Greed can be very destructive!
I have tried to hold back on this thread. Oversimplification to such a painful degree that I gotta speak out.
A nation will prosper when its economy prospers. A nation too dependent on government largesse will begin to whither. A governent does nothing to add to a country's GDP, it just takes from the GDP to run itself.
Conservatives do not believe that a government shouldn't tax, shouldn't provide services. Neither do they think greed for the rich and everyone else should suffer. They understand that policies that allow businesses to flourish and grow will help a nation as a whole and provide a solid tax base to run government necessary to keep a country running and well defended.
It isn't a polar opposite type of thing. Conservatives want to keep the central government smaller with less largesse, want to keep more of the money they earn instead of seeing such a huge percentage of it go to federal state and local taxes. Conservatives believe there are other institutions in the society besides the federal government to provide services to those in need, charities, churches, community based organizations and get wary when big brother gets too all encompassing and all powerful.
The meltdown in European countries that have a more socialistic approach, i.e. Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and soon to spread further (Italy) are proof that a too large central government will bring a country down.
There are areas where conservatives can get too right wing. That is why we have a two party system and a checks and balances with the Executive, congressional and judicial branches in our country.
Some of the leftish posters here are painting with an awfully broad brush to the far extreme. Truth is most conservatives and most liberals are just slightly right and left of center respectively and usually balance each other out to stay somewhere in the middle.
I have tried to hold back on this thread. Oversimplification to such a painful degree that I gotta speak out.
A nation will prosper when its economy prospers. A nation too dependent on government largesse will begin to whither. A governent does nothing to add to a country's GDP, it just takes from the GDP to run itself.
Conservatives do not believe that a government shouldn't tax, shouldn't provide services. Neither do they think greed for the rich and everyone else should suffer. They understand that policies that allow businesses to flourish and grow will help a nation as a whole and provide a solid tax base to run government necessary to keep a country running and well defended.
It isn't a polar opposite type of thing. Conservatives want to keep the central government smaller with less largesse, want to keep more of the money they earn instead of seeing such a huge percentage of it go to federal state and local taxes. Conservatives believe there are other institutions in the society besides the federal government to provide services to those in need, charities, churches, community based organizations and get wary when big brother gets too all encompassing and all powerful.
The meltdown in European countries that have a more socialistic approach, i.e. Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and soon to spread further (Italy) are proof that a too large central government will bring a country down.
There are areas where conservatives can get too right wing. That is why we have a two party system and a checks and balances with the Executive, congressional and judicial branches in our country.
Some of the leftish posters here are painting with an awfully broad brush to the far extreme. Truth is most conservatives and most liberals are just slightly right and left of center respectively and usually balance each other out to stay somewhere in the middle.
There is no "meltdown" in Europe. Greece is to the EU economy as the City of Miami is to the USA. They are being bailed out by Germany that has even higher taxes and a bigger government. Their measures of human development compared to the USA put us to shame. Their citizen have been treated better, and more fairly for the last 40 years and will continue to be treated better for the next forty years.
You only wish Europe would fail because it's a real world, every day proof how absurd and cruel right wing ideology is in the USA.
Last edited by padcrasher; 04-07-2012 at 12:48 PM..
Conservatives want to keep the central government smaller with less largesse, want to keep more of the money they earn instead of seeing such a huge percentage of it go to federal state and local taxes. Conservatives believe there are other institutions in the society besides the federal government to provide services to those in need, charities, churches, community based organizations and get wary when big brother gets too all encompassing and all powerful.
However....I suppose you probably expected a however thing.
I usually vote Democratic, but I'm actually a strong fiscal conservative.
I find that conservatives/republicans are usually social conservatives in action, but seldom ever fiscal conservatives.
Reason being is 'defending the borders' is another word for incredibly massive military expenditures. I've been living in South Korea/Japan for 15 years, among many, many American military. The spending over here is out of control, and these are just two countries out of many around the world with massive massive amounts of american military with bases splattered all over throughout these nations, and throughout the world (I'm American too, but I'm just saying).
I'm civilian, but I spent 1/10th of what american military pay for housing abroad. They spend a couple thousand a month easily (more than my entire paycheck) that all comes from Uncle Sam. They seem to marry anyone that comes along (of any nationality) often within just a few dates. Marry the most uneducated woman they find abroad, and suddenly uncle sam pays them even more for having kids, and they get bigger and bigger apartments.
Than I go down to the Philippines or Thailand or somewhere, and you'll see thousands and thousands of retired american military absolutely everywhere set for life and retired permanantly at 38 (20 years of service, and retirement until death)....plus a gazillion benefits.
I'm not against our military at all. However, being an american civilian abroad in korea/japan, I can certainly understand why american military personnel are the most adamantly against the welfare state of america...they see it everyday within their own ranks and system. At least that's why I assume they are against it, anyways, I could be wrong.
Sorry, end of rant. But, main point being that military spending abroad is incredibly massive. I travel often internationally, and I always see american military personnel on almost every flight in and out of korea - regardless if i'm going to mongolia or detroit or manila or wherever. Each of their flight is another $1,500...and you'll see 20-30 personnel....another $50,000 down the drain.
They go out and do 'training' or 'maneuvers' and probably spend another $50,000 to fly the planes and practice with live weapons and ammo and everything else...and more money out the window daily for hundred of thousands of american troops around the world training....and then even more for the many actively in war, etc. Countless upon countless millions throughout the world to actively run the thousands of bases spread around the globe absolutely everywhere. Each one is like a 'mini-city', if you've never seen one. Complete with movie theaters, fire stations, subsidized stores (with everything you can imagine at huge discounts), absolutely everything available at taxpayer money.
So, everytime I see 'social conservatives' talking about how they are 'fiscal conservative' and ready for more wars in Iran, Syria, on and on....up it more in Iraq and Afghanistan....destroy and rebuilt nearly every other nation on earth 50 times over....but get all weird and squeamish everytime anyone thinks we should spend something domestically on our own education or anything that goes towards american people rather than afghan destroying and rebuilding...it irks me a bit.
I get the concept of (even though I dont agree with it) of 'don't do anything for american people' thing with hopes that humanitarian churchs will pick up the slack. But, why do we do nothing for our own people, but spend gazillions upon gazillions upon gazillions bombing and rebuilding others, and keeping up an incredibly expensive military to do that to other citizens...but believe that we should be absolutely 'hands off' when it comes to something so basic as our citizens education and health?
Last edited by Tiger Beer; 04-07-2012 at 12:59 PM..
There is no "meltdown" in Europe. Greece is to the EU economy as the City of Miami is to the USA. They are being bailed out by Germany that has even higher taxes and a bigger government. Their measures of human development compared to the USA put us to shame. Their citizen have been treated better, and more fairly for the last 40 years and will continue to be treated better for the next forty years.
You only wish Europe would fail because it's a real world, every day proof how absurd and cruel right wing ideology is.
How is young people unemployment in europe compared to the US? I know its above 25% in the euro zone on avg. The social safety net is too high to hire many young workers as the cost of hiring them is great, so its a big risk to take, jobs are moving to less expensive Eastern Europe countries as a result. Not a pretty picture there either.
I agree that assuming extremes for the opposing party seems to be more the national sport than baseball here. Its something we need to move beyond on both sides
There is no "meltdown" in Europe. Greece is to the EU economy as the City of Miami is to the USA. They are being bailed out by Germany that has even higher taxes and a bigger government. Their measures of human development compared to the USA put us to shame. Their citizen have been treated better, and more fairly for the last 40 years and will continue to be treated better for the next forty years.
You only wish Europe would fail because it's a real world, every day proof how absurd and cruel right wing ideology is in the USA.
Why do so many of you on the left that I meet on these threads have such a lack of respect and politeness in discussing politics? Why are you putting words in my mouth and judge my intentions? I wish Europe would fail? SERIOUSLY?
I lived in England for 2 years, loved the country, loved the people. Yet I saw how a socialized system produced an ineffective populace compared to ours. Much more of a gap between the haves and have nots over there, more sullen souls living off the dole and declaring it their God given right. Much less room for upward mobility if you do not come from wealth, much less a chance to own a home. And this was in the Thatcher years when England was doing much better economically than it is now.
Visited friends in Germany. The chance for them to ever own their own home was close to non existant. If you don't inherit one, almost impossible to ever have one of your own.
Europe is grossly expensive and grossly taxed. Yes, the government provided more services like health care but the couple of times I had chance to visit one of their institutions, was thankful I was young and healthy and didn't have any serious health issues that would have required health care there.
Been there, done that sir. Europe has some great culture and beautiful sights, but life there is not like the opportunity here in our great country.
However....I suppose you probably expected a however thing.
I usually vote Democratic, but I'm actually a strong fiscal conservative.
I find that conservatives/republicans are usually social conservatives in action, but seldom ever fiscal conservatives.
Reason being is 'defending the borders' is another word for incredibly massive military expenditures. I've been living in South Korea/Japan for 15 years, among many, many American military. The spending over here is out of control, and these are just two countries out of many around the world with massive massive amounts of american military with bases splattered all over throughout these nations, and throughout the world (I'm American too, but I'm just saying).
I'm civilian, but I spent 1/10th of what american military pay for housing abroad. They spend a couple thousand a month easily (more than my entire paycheck) that all comes from Uncle Sam. They seem to marry anyone that comes along (of any nationality) often within just a few dates. Marry the most uneducated woman they find abroad, and suddenly uncle sam pays them even more for having kids, and they get bigger and bigger apartments.
Than I go down to the Philippines or Thailand or somewhere, and you'll see thousands and thousands of retired american military absolutely everywhere set for life and retired permanantly at 38 (20 years of service, and retirement until death)....plus a gazillion benefits.
I'm not against our military at all. However, being an american civilian abroad in korea/japan, I can certainly understand why american military personnel are the most adamantly against the welfare state of america...they see it everyday within their own ranks and system. At least that's why I assume they are against it, anyways, I could be wrong.
Sorry, end of rant. But, main point being that military spending abroad is incredibly massive. I travel often internationally, and I always see american military personnel on almost every flight in and out of korea - regardless if i'm going to mongolia or detroit or manila or wherever. Each of their flight is another $1,500...and you'll see 20-30 personnel....another $50,000 down the drain.
They go out and do 'training' or 'maneuvers' and probably spend another $50,000 to fly the planes and practice with live weapons and ammo and everything else...and more money out the window daily for hundred of thousands of american troops around the world training....and then even more for the many actively in war, etc. Countless upon countless millions throughout the world to actively run the thousands of bases spread around the globe absolutely everywhere. Each one is like a 'mini-city', if you've never seen one. Complete with movie theaters, fire stations, subsidized stores (with everything you can imagine at huge discounts), absolutely everything available at taxpayer money.
So, everytime I see 'social conservatives' talking about how they are 'fiscal conservative' and ready for more wars in Iran, Syria, on and on....up it more in Iraq and Afghanistan....destroy and rebuilt nearly every other nation on earth 50 times over....but get all weird and squeamish everytime anyone thinks we should spend something domestically on our own education or anything that goes towards american people rather than afghan destroying and rebuilding...it irks me a bit.
I get the concept of (even though I dont agree with it) of 'don't do anything for american people' thing with hopes that humanitarian churchs will pick up the slack. But, why do we do nothing for our own people, but spend gazillions upon gazillions upon gazillions bombing and rebuilding others, and keeping up an incredibly expensive military to do that to other citizens...but believe that we should be absolutely 'hands off' when it comes to something so basic as our citizens education and health?
To tie the two responses to me together, ever thought that American military expenditures overseas have helped other nations (Asian rim, Western Europe) to grow and prosper and not have to spend massive amounts on foreign defense programs themselves?
Has America done everything right around the world in this past century? No, surely not. Would anyone else in the place of America have done better? Absolutely not.
Our world is a world constantly at war throughout history, nation fighting nation. America has taken its role as the leading super power in the world and used that might with more integrity overall than any nation previously or any nation out there that would like to take our place. Anyone care to give an example of any other nation that would have done better in the past or would do better now?
To tie the two responses to me together, ever thought that American military expenditures overseas have helped other nations (Asian rim, Western Europe) to grow and prosper and not have to spend massive amounts on foreign defense programs themselves?
Has America done everything right around the world in this past century? No, surely not. Would anyone else in the place of America have done better? Absolutely not.
Our world is a world constantly at war throughout history, nation fighting nation. America has taken its role as the leading super power in the world and used that might with more integrity overall than any nation previously or any nation out there that would like to take our place. Anyone care to give an example of any other nation that would have done better in the past or would do better now?
Yeah, but that's not fiscal conservative thinking. Unfortunately that is 'tax and spend' Republican thinking however.
Two common themes in current Republican thinking: 1) There is no limit to spending abroad, and 2) but $1 to help your own flesh and blood is completely unacceptable. I don't agree with either of those two philosophies. We should be fiscal conservative with spending abroad, and be a bit more helpful with helping our own.
I do agree with you that we are getting off-topic.
--
To the OP (for the topic of this thread)....'athiests'....why go to that extreme? Can't you just stop at the 'not interested in religion' part? Athiests is kind of 'hand in hand' with the extremely evangical. Just adamant about a belief system, which is basically athiests' problem with religion in the first place, so mimicking it in another form. I don't get it.
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