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Old 08-06-2013, 06:02 PM
 
1,788 posts, read 1,888,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Made_it_To_the_Metroplex View Post
Very nice - a great addition, but I just have trouble calling a 20-ish story building a high-rise... <sigh>
What is your preferred terminology? I ask in a serious manner.
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Old 08-06-2013, 06:50 PM
 
Location: plano
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I know the Houston ways and rules or lack there of from more years there than DFW area. So zoning preferences for lower rise buildings is not something I have experienced. One land use of note in Plano and perhaps Frisco, which I am most familiar with in DFW area is the significant vacant acreage zoned commercial. It is fairly clear to me that 20 years after residential in Plano is built out there will still be vacant commercial use land. Zoning may or may not taken into account market demands for commercial land especially considering the next city over will zone a lot of land for commercial use as well perhaps as it appears Plano and Frisco have done.

Are the residential towers so abundant north of DT Dallas on land always zoned for this use or were zoning changes required for a lot?
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Old 08-06-2013, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
5,681 posts, read 9,682,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceraceae View Post
What is your preferred terminology? I ask in a serious manner.
In a city on the scale of Dallas (or a great many other 1st and 2nd tier cities), I would call a 20-story building a mid-rise at best. Nice, but kind of a yawn at the same time.
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Old 08-06-2013, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Dallas,Texas
5,280 posts, read 7,213,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Made_it_To_the_Metroplex View Post
In a city on the scale of Dallas (or a great many other 1st and 2nd tier cities), I would call a 20-story building a mid-rise at best. Nice, but kind of a yawn at the same time.
Seriously....

20 stories is a mid-rise???
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:53 PM
 
581 posts, read 749,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Made_it_To_the_Metroplex View Post
In a city on the scale of Dallas (or a great many other 1st and 2nd tier cities), I would call a 20-story building a mid-rise at best. Nice, but kind of a yawn at the same time.
Tell that to Sao Paul, Brazil.



aerial photos of sao paulo brazil - Lavasoft Secure Search Yahoo! Search Results

And corporate campuses is the new norm. I can envision a few of those being built in the Dallas Design District. A fifty story residential building and a few thirty story ones are planned for the Harwood Development in uptown.

To get a loan nowadays, figure a company has to get at least a fifth of the space preleased if it is a twenty story building. Any higher and they would need to get a quarter of it leased.

Last edited by binkyman; 08-07-2013 at 12:04 AM..
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:21 AM
 
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Not sure if I can link it, but Emporis defines a highrise as:

Quote:
A high-rise building is a structure whose architectural height is between 35 and 100 meters. A structure is automatically listed as a high-rise when it has a minimum of 12 floors, whether or not the height is known. If it has fewer than 40 floors and the height is unknown, it is also classified automatically as a high-rise.
Skyscraper
Quote:
A skyscraper is defined on Emporis as a multi-story building whose architectural height is at least 100 meters. This definition falls midway between many common definitions worldwide, and is intended as a metric compromise which can be applied across the board worldwide. The 100-meter cutoff for a skyscraper coincides with the cutoff for the Emporis Skyscraper Award.
There are highrises all over the metroplex. Why people ignore the DNT, Preston Center, Park Central, Mockingbird, Central@NW Highway, Addison, Farmers Branch, West Plano, Las Colinas, Fort Worth and the Telecom Corridor because they do not sit within the border of Dallas proper. Houston and Dallas are not equal as far as their actual physical sizes as Houston annexed a ton of their surrounding land.

Why so many skyscrapers in Houston? Land prices and zoning. Explained it in another thread(and this is from the mouth of a commercial developer), Land prices as you move towards the center of Houston rise significantly, where they don't in DFW. When a developer or investor is looking at buying land, its easier to buy more land in Dallas because its cheaper. Well, you have your one block to build on and you're developing a certain amount of space, you go up. Especially if there are no zoning barriers or street setback standards. You could just do it wherever you own that land and make a ton of money. In Dallas, for that same money if you bought one block, and are in an area that can build up, you can build less square footage and make money because the land wasn't as expensive. You could also buy 3 or 4 lots and build 3 or 4, 20 stories high rises or to a particular size that a client wants(like Frost Bank or Richards Group)one at a time and achieve the same square footage. This takes away the immediacy of leasing a large amount of space at once. This and zoning are approximately why there is significantly more office space in DFW, yet more highrises in Houston Metro. There's just less incentive to build tall in DFW, and more to build space to suit or build horizontally.

Zoning also is involved as it limits or restricts type and size of building in a given area, the type of massing, retail size, street and sidewalk standards, etc. This is what keeps a random highrise from showing up at Gaston and Munger or Greenville and McCommas. It keeps an obscure tow lot from being put next to a new residential neighborhood or allows only certain traffic counts in certain areas. Let's say the numbers match up in both metros to build 100,000sqft about 20 miles from both downtowns. One area has no height restriction or zoning, while the other does. In this case, land is cheap enough that both could build horizontally. In Houston though, I'm still in Houston Proper and there's no height or land-use restriction right behind this neighborhood. So I'm going to build a 12 story building. In DFW, even outside of Dallas Proper, if you want to build up, you'd better be in an area zoned for it. If you aren't you're going to build 3 to 10 stories and take up more land horizontally. Advantage Houston: for the developer. Advantage Houston: for emporis highrise counts.

But is a highrise the end all? More than once, Urban Planners from elsewhere have come along and preached Portland over Houston or Dallas at those times. Even Calatrava suggested as such. So that's why zoning has tightened, and its paying off for Dallas(This is a Dallas forum). The city has come to life outside of the car big-time. How is that relative to other cities? I have no clue. Its not New York by any means, but as recent picture threads on other boards have indicated, Dallas is no longer the city where you look at pictures and wonder where all the people are. I would take that over a bunch of highrises everyday.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:39 AM
 
Location: plano
5,963 posts, read 7,511,409 times
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Zoning tends to drive up land values/costs so how is it Houston DT land is so expensive it drives you to build up yet in Dallas DT zoning prevents one from building too high. Does that mean zoning is killing off Dallas DT tower potential?

I agree with the post above that not considering the suburban office developments as part of the picture in Dallas area is putting artifiicial barriers in places real ones do not exist.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:29 AM
 
3,814 posts, read 3,716,232 times
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Quote:
One land use of note in Plano and perhaps Frisco, which I am most familiar with in DFW area is the significant vacant acreage zoned commercial.
Plano just recently changed many of their giant commercial lots fronting freeways from major commercial to optional multifamily mixed use, which I think accepts the fact that poaching giant companies to build giant office campuses is a rare event, and if there are only a few opportunites per decade to get those, then you must bank of the possilbity of city land being vacant for decades. Which in my opinion is not a particularly efficient use of city land.

This is just one case where zoning of the land made it effectively worth less, not more. Also, Houston doesn't have zoning, but it has comparable and in many cases more stringent land use regulations than Dallas. It's not zoning, but it does drive what can be built and what it will look like. Here's just one simple example:

Houston regulations:
http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/De...tree_shrub.pdf
[SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3]Street trees – [/SIZE][SIZE=3][SIZE=3]must be planted in or adjacent to public rights-of-way; one tree for every 30 feet of road frontage. [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][SIZE=3][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]Dallas regulations, only in effect for the past 15 years: [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]http://www.greendallas.net/pdfs/Tree_Ordinance.pdf[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[LEFT](b)(4) Street trees. A large tree must be provided for each 50 feet of frontage, with a minimum of[/LEFT]
two trees being provided.

And I think someone else has suggested it before, but I think the reason Houston has taller buildings is because their suburbs are historically smaller and less powerful than DFW's are.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:10 AM
 
Location: ITL (Houston)
9,223 posts, read 13,461,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantanamo View Post
There are highrises all over the metroplex. Why people ignore the DNT, Preston Center, Park Central, Mockingbird, Central@NW Highway, Addison, Farmers Branch, West Plano, Las Colinas, Fort Worth and the Telecom Corridor because they do not sit within the border of Dallas proper. Houston and Dallas are not equal as far as their actual physical sizes as Houston annexed a ton of their surrounding land.
DFW definitely has quite a few skylines, but you would expect that for a metro area of its size. They are just smaller skylines.

Quote:
Why so many skyscrapers in Houston? Land prices and zoning. Explained it in another thread(and this is from the mouth of a commercial developer), Land prices as you move towards the center of Houston rise significantly, where they don't in DFW. When a developer or investor is looking at buying land, its easier to buy more land in Dallas because its cheaper. Well, you have your one block to build on and you're developing a certain amount of space, you go up. Especially if there are no zoning barriers or street setback standards. You could just do it wherever you own that land and make a ton of money. In Dallas, for that same money if you bought one block, and are in an area that can build up, you can build less square footage and make money because the land wasn't as expensive. You could also buy 3 or 4 lots and build 3 or 4, 20 stories high rises or to a particular size that a client wants(like Frost Bank or Richards Group)one at a time and achieve the same square footage. This takes away the immediacy of leasing a large amount of space at once. This and zoning are approximately why there is significantly more office space in DFW, yet more highrises in Houston Metro. There's just less incentive to build tall in DFW, and more to build space to suit or build horizontally.
There isn't significantly more office space in DFW than Houston though. DFW only has about 30M more square feet of office space than Houston.



Quote:
Zoning also is involved as it limits or restricts type and size of building in a given area, the type of massing, retail size, street and sidewalk standards, etc. This is what keeps a random highrise from showing up at Gaston and Munger or Greenville and McCommas. It keeps an obscure tow lot from being put next to a new residential neighborhood or allows only certain traffic counts in certain areas. Let's say the numbers match up in both metros to build 100,000sqft about 20 miles from both downtowns. One area has no height restriction or zoning, while the other does. In this case, land is cheap enough that both could build horizontally. In Houston though, I'm still in Houston Proper and there's no height or land-use restriction right behind this neighborhood. So I'm going to build a 12 story building. In DFW, even outside of Dallas Proper, if you want to build up, you'd better be in an area zoned for it. If you aren't you're going to build 3 to 10 stories and take up more land horizontally. Advantage Houston: for the developer. Advantage Houston: for emporis highrise counts.
Can you post an example of an obscure tow lot being built next to a new residential neighborhood? The only thing that zoning does is not allow neighborhoods like these to happen in DFW:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Houst...45.97,,0,16.31

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Houst...2,43.1,,0,1.05

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Houst...12,6.4,,0,7.31

Instead you just get this:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Houst...50.31,,0,12.59

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Houst...4.04,,0,-12.37
^^Minus the tower, obviously

Quote:
But is a highrise the end all? More than once, Urban Planners from elsewhere have come along and preached Portland over Houston or Dallas at those times. Even Calatrava suggested as such. So that's why zoning has tightened, and its paying off for Dallas(This is a Dallas forum). The city has come to life outside of the car big-time. How is that relative to other cities? I have no clue. Its not New York by any means, but as recent picture threads on other boards have indicated, Dallas is no longer the city where you look at pictures and wonder where all the people are. I would take that over a bunch of highrises everyday.
That's the thing though. Just because Houston is building more highrises does not mean that the pedestrian activity hasn't increased just like it has in Dallas. Portland is only a model for some. NYC has a ton of pedestrians with highrises. Chicago is the same way. Los Angeles is more mixed like Houston.
Attached Thumbnails
DFW area new major developments-cbre.jpg  
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
5,681 posts, read 9,682,194 times
Reputation: 1889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallaz View Post
Seriously....

20 stories is a mid-rise???
Quote:
Originally Posted by binkyman View Post
Tell that to Sao Paul, Brazil.
Hey - just my .02 worth!

BTW - this quote from Post #56 sums up my view pretty well: "A skyscraper is defined on Emporis as a multi-story building whose architectural height is at least 100 meters. This definition falls midway between many common definitions worldwide, and is intended as a metric compromise which can be applied across the board worldwide. The 100-meter cutoff for a skyscraper coincides with the cutoff for the Emporis Skyscraper Award." To me, "High rise" = "Skyscraper". 20 stories?.... Not so much IMHO.

Last edited by Made_it_To_the_Metroplex; 08-07-2013 at 01:05 PM..
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