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Old 08-09-2013, 06:47 PM
 
581 posts, read 775,451 times
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While downtown Dallas is going through the process of gentrification right now, most of it isn't happening because of efforts from the city of Dallas and the downtown association of Dallas.

Let me explain.

In actuality, as Uptown is now in the process of spilling over into every neighborhood surrounding it, so is it also spilling back into downtown Dallas years after downtown Dallas itself spilled over into it. The missing factor in this process is retail. It still has yet to reform in central Dallas forty years after it dissolved away in downtown.

In other words, in their competition to reestablish downtown with retail, the City of Dallas and the downtown associations of Dallas are smothering growth in the whole central core of Dallas.

Well, okay, it isn't like things aren't booming pretty much everywhere; but, retail is always going to be the key to any successful development within the city of Dallas. Again, as things are settling, it seems to be the area in and around the CityPlace development that is the most prime for the reformulation of retail within central Dallas.

After that gets going, then Uptown Dallas should then spread back into downtown Dallas. That is the correct order in which things actually work. If we learned anything from communist Russia, the Soviet idea of building retail all over in every place is naive and doomed to failure. As is always the case in the suburbs, the prime mall is what gets built first and then, knowing their place in the pecking order, other retail then flourishes around it.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:56 PM
 
11,922 posts, read 22,195,789 times
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Why do you start the same thread every few days?
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:50 AM
 
581 posts, read 775,451 times
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Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80 View Post
Why do you start the same thread every few days?
It isn't the same at all. I'm arguing here that the city and the downtown associations are falsely taking credit for most of the development going on in downtown right now. In actuality, Uptown is just pouring back into downtown just as it is spilling over into every neighborhood around it. By Uptown, one really has to include the Dallas Arts District in with it. So, there really have been six major developments making Uptown what it is today:

1) Bryan Place (This was a pioneer development by Fox and Jacobs)
2) CityPlace
3) The Dallas Arts District
4) The Crescent development
5) Harwood
6) Victory Park

Sorry, I just find this fascinating as I like thinking of myself as more of a civil engineer interested more in the connecting of neighborhoods than in building skyscrapers. Look at the eight areas on the edge of downtown and notice how well they are developed. There is the West end in one corner towards the northwest which is about to get a new museum, a lot more museums seem to be developing along the northern edge including the Dallas Arts District along with some small skyscrapers. Seven Eleven is based in the Arts building at the northeast corner. A transit oriented mix use development is planned along the eastern edge. A lot of housing is being built within the southeast edge of downtown in the vicinity of the Dallas Market Center. The southwest corner is the location of the Convention Center and the new hotel. Here recently, rumor has it that a corporate campus of some sort could be built along the western edge. If true, then the only area not seeing development right now is south of City Hall.

This is so different from how downtown Houston is developing. As I've said before in this forum, there might never be another tall skyscraper built in the central Dallas area.

You don't find that interesting?
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:24 PM
 
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The growth around uptown looks like it is being driven by growth and not by planning.
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TX75007 View Post
The growth around uptown looks like it is being driven by growth and not by planning.
Planning doesn't create the individual structures, but it only allows for certain land uses, densities and things like setback, sidewalk width and height. It has certainly set the stage for land prices and the future use of remaining lots. Not to mention to use of TIFs for areas to reinvest in themselves.

And I think Binkyman has it all wrong about downtown Dallas. I see downtown as a whole as a big neighborhood around inner-city Dallas, but the part he's referring to is the Central Business District, which is another story. The City and its many downtown associations deserve huge credit for what's going on in the Central Business District. They've fought for the beautification projects, the studies, the pocket parks, the things like a grocery store. They've also found developers to redevelop some of these old buildings and fought for affordable housing, which is pretty much a no go in other inner-city neighborhoods. They were the ones that pushed for the Arts District and Klyde Warren Park. There are a ton of projects going on downtown and/or in the near future.

The southern part of downtown features a lot of these projects. In talking about the south parts, you also have to talk about the Farmers Market area, which is currently seeing a huge townhome development being built. You also have the Farmers Market itself in the throws of planning for the near future. Slower than the other side, but not that surprising when comparing adjacent development. I would say the eastern side of the CBD is the slowest if anything, while the south at least has a few hotels, some nice reno projects going on and the whole Farmers Market area.

The often forgotten area near downtown, especially for those new to talking about this kind of thing is The Cedars. There were big plans for that area prior to the recession. Multiple large urban residentials, rows of townhomes, and even the originally planned site for Cowboys(AT&T) stadium. Now it seems this was mostly forgotten unless you are part of the Jack Matthews development firm, who is building the affordable housing building in The Cedars as well as them still saying their Development on the Trinity is still going to start this fall or winter.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:03 AM
 
581 posts, read 775,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantanamo View Post
Planning doesn't create the individual structures, but it only allows for certain land uses, densities and things like setback, sidewalk width and height. It has certainly set the stage for land prices and the future use of remaining lots. Not to mention to use of TIFs for areas to reinvest in themselves.

And I think Binkyman has it all wrong about downtown Dallas. I see downtown as a whole as a big neighborhood around inner-city Dallas, but the part he's referring to is the Central Business District, which is another story. The City and its many downtown associations deserve huge credit for what's going on in the Central Business District. They've fought for the beautification projects, the studies, the pocket parks, the things like a grocery store. They've also found developers to redevelop some of these old buildings and fought for affordable housing, which is pretty much a no go in other inner-city neighborhoods. They were the ones that pushed for the Arts District and Klyde Warren Park. There are a ton of projects going on downtown and/or in the near future.

The southern part of downtown features a lot of these projects. In talking about the south parts, you also have to talk about the Farmers Market area, which is currently seeing a huge townhome development being built. You also have the Farmers Market itself in the throws of planning for the near future. Slower than the other side, but not that surprising when comparing adjacent development. I would say the eastern side of the CBD is the slowest if anything, while the south at least has a few hotels, some nice reno projects going on and the whole Farmers Market area.

The often forgotten area near downtown, especially for those new to talking about this kind of thing is The Cedars. There were big plans for that area prior to the recession. Multiple large urban residentials, rows of townhomes, and even the originally planned site for Cowboys(AT&T) stadium. Now it seems this was mostly forgotten unless you are part of the Jack Matthews development firm, who is building the affordable housing building in The Cedars as well as them still saying their Development on the Trinity is still going to start this fall or winter.
Okay, see this is always the stickler. In determining what is central Dallas, which is how you have to reword downtown, I split real estate into the three parts of office, residential and retail. In Houston, the central core area is still within the particular designation of the traditional freeway loop of its old downtown. In other words, the prime office, residential and retail in the central core of Houston is still within the traditional freeway loop system.

In contrast, in Dallas, not only has the prime office, residential, and retail moved north of downtown to that of Uptown, but the designation itself is in a state of flux. For example, credit Victory Park with waking up the already established Uptown developments of Harwood and Rosewood in an attempt at stealing away the designated label of primary upscale from them. At the same time, the area of CityPlace and West Village could end up becoming the new heart and soul of retail within the central core of, well, as you say, what is becoming the new downtown of Dallas.

The purpose of this thread is to present an alternate point of view which argues Uptown is now in the ironical process of spreading itself into downtown Dallas.

Concerning the inside edges only of what is the old traditional downtown of Dallas, one has to consider the way the area has become round in comparison to the more square Houston and to that of most other major cities in the United States. While Ross is said to have become the new Main Street of Dallas the way it ushers out from the Dallas Arts District, the original Main Street itself ushers out from the eastern edge of downtown running through Deep Ellum and connecting up with Dallas Fair Park. Gaston, a street between Ross and Main Street, also ushers out of the eastern edge of downtown running through the Baylor Medical Center and connecting out farther with the upscale neighborhood of Lakewood.

Similarly, it is quite cool the way downtown Dallas both connects up directly with West Dallas and to Oak Cliff across the Trinity River. But then DART went one better by running an end run around both of the above mentioned areas with Light Rail by the way the line runs south first under the Convention Center, running along the right of way of an older line, supplying a station south of downtown in the process before turning westward to cross the Trinity River into Oak Cliff after which it splits itself up into two lines connecting with both the Dallas Zoo and to Veterans Hospital.

Notice how a lot of these inside edges of downtown Dallas I mention are either served by Light Rail or by Trolley. In Houston, the present existing Metro line is not near as serving by the way it just ushers straight out from downtown. This is why I can envision transit oriented types of corporate campuses being built up along the outside edges of downtown Dallas.

Again, I think downtown is growing today because Uptown is spreading itself back into it. That is the main point of the thread. Another point is how skyscrapers come about in Dallas because of the establishment of retail. In other words, just forget about the skyscrapers in the central core of Dallas.

As it stands today:

1) The people seem to have isolated an area between the upscale Crescent development and Knox-Henderson, a stretch running in a direction more or less from the southwest to northeast, as the best choice of becoming the new designated area to reformulate retail within the central core area of Dallas with the City-Place / West Village area itself serving as the very heart of it. Think of the Magnificent Mile in Chicago which resides wholly outside of downtown Chicago.

2) Developers need to be left alone and freed up as much as possible in establishing retail as it is an extremely difficult task for developers to achieve successfully even after they have made their expert determinations which is the best place to develop it.

3) As retail has always been the fuel that drives Dallas, the city government of Dallas and other organizations representing the other parts of the central core of Dallas need to throw their full support behind this plan of building up a single primary retail district. After that area has been established, then a buildup of retail within the rest of the areas within the central core area of Dallas, with this being the new downtown of Dallas, should flourish.

Last edited by binkyman; 08-11-2013 at 09:13 AM..
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
2,897 posts, read 4,349,455 times
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I hope the city and TxDOT adopt the plan to tear down I-345. Open up the developable land around the freeway to more seamlessly connect the CBD to Deep Ellum, and East Dallas.

Pretty sure there would be an explosion of development on DT's eastside.

WALKABLE Dallas-Fort Worth

http://anewdallas.com/
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:55 AM
 
581 posts, read 775,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout_972 View Post
I hope the city and TxDOT adopt the plan to tear down I-345. Open up the developable land around the freeway to more seamlessly connect the CBD to Deep Ellum, and East Dallas.

Pretty sure there would be an explosion of development on DT's eastside.

WALKABLE Dallas-Fort Worth

A New Dallas
Indeed, pitching a stake at the intersection of Haskell and Gaston would land one right in the middle of a vacuum with the Dallas Fair Park towards the southeast, Baylor and Deep Ellum towards the south, downtown towards the southwest, Uptown towards the west, CityPlace / West Village towards the northwest, and Lakewood towards the northeast. There is lower Greenville Avenue somewhere in the vicinity with its new Trader Joes.

This is why I like this part of the Dallas area. It doesn't have that many skyscrapers, but it sure has a lot of dimension, mainly because of the close-in proximity of Love Field, concerning the question of what is prime.
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:26 PM
 
Location: The Magnolia City
8,931 posts, read 11,766,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleCreek80 View Post
Why do you start the same thread every few days?
Ha! Could it be? Even Dallasites are annoyed by it.
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:18 AM
 
581 posts, read 775,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
Ha! Could it be? Even Dallasites are annoyed by it.
Some of us find reading and writing annoying. I'd like to draw up some examples to present with my arguments, but I need to buy new crayons. I am indeed moving slow from point to point. I first showed that Uptown Dallas has become the new epicenter. I then took the next step claiming that downtown Dallas is now booming because Uptown is in the process of, as ironical as it might sound, expanding back into the downtown area. Indeed, metaphorically speaking, it is Uptown today and not downtown Dallas that is spilling itself over, pouring in every direction, flowing into every neighborhood that surrounds it.
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