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Old 09-05-2013, 01:38 AM
 
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Alabama's out-of-state scholarship offerings look like they are set up to cherry-pick from the good number of high achievers who can't get into UT or A&M
They probably are - because as a whole Alabama is not very populous, is mostly poor, and has a terrible racist history, so high earners and strong prospects from the west and north east coasts ain't going to move there in great numbers and improve their economic situation. So they have to poach from TX, Georgia, and Florida, people more likely to consider and willing to move to Alabama until they can get their history behind them and their economic situation up to par. There's not even a legitimate airport in Tuscaloosa, where the University of Alabama is located for example. You have to fly into Birmingham and drive 60 something miles.

Last edited by TheOverdog; 09-05-2013 at 01:48 AM..
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TheOverdog View Post
They probably are - because as a whole Alabama is not very populous, is mostly poor, and has a terrible racist history, so high earners and strong prospects from the west and north east coasts ain't going to move there in great numbers and improve their economic situation. So they have to poach from TX, Georgia, and Florida, people more likely to consider and willing to move to Alabama until they can get their history behind them and their economic situation up to par. There's not even a legitimate airport in Tuscaloosa, where the University of Alabama is located for example. You have to fly into Birmingham and drive 60 something miles.
Not exactly accurate. The student body is now over 60% out of state. They have a strong showing from the N.E. and California as well. While the entire state as a whole may not be affluent there are some large pockets of wealth as I have learned from being there and learning more about the area. They have come a long way in terms of economics and racial history.

No, there is not an airport IN Tuscaloosa. However, it is only a 45 minute drive away. Heck, it can take that long or longer from the burbs of Dallas to get to either airport here. There are many great schools that do not have airports within an hours drive even if they happen to be in the same city limits. To even try and use the airport as an argument point is a far stretch. It is a non issue.

Last edited by gymrat; 09-05-2013 at 08:43 AM..
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
To me Alabama's game theory is really smart versus UT and A&M which are both hamstrung by stupid policies outside of their full control. Alabama's out-of-state scholarship offerings look like they are set up to cherry-pick from the good number of high achievers who can't get into UT or A&M - I realize it's not that simple but it sure looks peculiar.
This exactly what they have done. For this years freshman the housing for those coming into the Honors College was over capacity. They had to move out upperclassmen with housing scholarships and pay them to live off campus in the new condos that just opened in order to have all freshman on campus. The new SEC Quad is utterly amazing. BTW, SEC stands for Science and Engineering Complex so it is not football related
They are growing their grad school now to attract the creme of the crop as well. They upped the NMF scholarship for the class of 2014. It is not just to attract those that can not get into the UT's or A&M's out there as many of them can get into those schools. It is just that once you look at the big picture, who wants to go into debt for undergrad when you have grad school on the horizon. It really is that simple and they are playing smart, and simple. The retention rate is high across the board and the sheer number of NMF's that decide to take them up on their generous offer has placed them at the top of the list.

After our first visit we were sold and I've found that to be true for many. The students are not just a number. The academics are strong, or else I would not send my kid there.

Yes, Texas schools could take a lesson from them.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:19 AM
 
7,299 posts, read 8,140,622 times
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Originally Posted by TheOverdog View Post
They probably are - because as a whole Alabama is not very populous, is mostly poor, and has a terrible racist history, so high earners and strong prospects from the west and north east coasts ain't going to move there in great numbers and improve their economic situation. So they have to poach from TX, Georgia, and Florida, people more likely to consider and willing to move to Alabama until they can get their history behind them and their economic situation up to par. There's not even a legitimate airport in Tuscaloosa, where the University of Alabama is located for example. You have to fly into Birmingham and drive 60 something miles.
One of the things I leaned studying economics in college is to never go with your gut - your gut, and mine, is wrong far too often.

Regarding Alabama I'll grant you that the state has a seriously awful history with bigotry.

Regarding economic standing not so much and back to the gut being wrong often. Alabama's adjusted average income is 23rd in the US - above New York, New Jersey and far above California.

For Alabama and frankly many other non-east and west coast schools they just don't have enough qualified kids. Texas has sort-of an in-context trifecta going:

1. We have a super-abundance of very bright kids relative to our state's ability to educated them in college.

2. We are a very rich state, regardless of all of the silly emotional arguments to the contrary Texas is 3rd in adjusted average income by far the best performing very large state for context California is 45th.

3. We have the hard percentage rules at UT and TAMU that make the pool of wayward very bright students looking elsewhere unnaturally large.


To me it's simple economics Alabama has an issue and it is investing in its future by offering all of these scholarships. In the long run this is a win for Alabama and a loss for Texas - just too many bright kids leave and don't come back.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Southlake. Don't judge me.
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Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
One of the things I leaned studying economics in college is to never go with your gut - your gut, and mine, is wrong far too often.

Regarding Alabama I'll grant you that the state has a seriously awful history with bigotry.

Regarding economic standing not so much and back to the gut being wrong often. Alabama's adjusted average income is 23rd in the US - above New York, New Jersey and far above California.

For Alabama and frankly many other non-east and west coast schools they just don't have enough qualified kids. Texas has sort-of an in-context trifecta going:

1. We have a super-abundance of very bright kids relative to our state's ability to educated them in college.

2. We are a very rich state, regardless of all of the silly emotional arguments to the contrary Texas is 3rd in adjusted average income by far the best performing very large state for context California is 45th.

3. We have the hard percentage rules at UT and TAMU that make the pool of wayward very bright students looking elsewhere unnaturally large.


To me it's simple economics Alabama has an issue and it is investing in its future by offering all of these scholarships. In the long run this is a win for Alabama and a loss for Texas - just too many bright kids leave and don't come back.
Quick question - where are you getting the adjusted average income data from? I'd be interested in taking a look at that.
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Old 09-06-2013, 09:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by synchronicity View Post
Quick question - where are you getting the adjusted average income data from? I'd be interested in taking a look at that.

It's a bls set of metrics but this list is a lot easier to use.

You'll be especially interested in number one.


Average Income By State | Best States & Worst States | Money-Rates.com


ETA - Cali is actually 47th not 45th.


ETA II - One year newer data
http://www.money-rates.com/research-...iving/2012.htm
http://www.money-rates.com/research-...plete-list.htm

Last edited by EDS_; 09-06-2013 at 10:13 AM..
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Southlake. Don't judge me.
2,812 posts, read 3,571,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
It's a bls set of metrics but this list is a lot easier to use.

You'll be especially interested in number one.


Average Income By State | Best States & Worst States | Money-Rates.com


ETA - Cali is actually 47th not 45th.


ETA II - One year newer data
Best States to Make a Living 2012
Best States to Make a Living 2012: All 50 states
Thanks very much! Great, another thing to distract me this weekend...

and yes, very surprised by #1.
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Old 09-06-2013, 10:39 AM
 
3,812 posts, read 3,714,477 times
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To me it's simple economics Alabama has an issue and it is investing in its future by offering all of these scholarships. In the long run this is a win for Alabama and a loss for Texas - just too many bright kids leave and don't come back.
I completely agree, but from an economic perspective, Texas and Alabama are in completely different places. Texas has high net immigration, with (hopefully) a number of those people coming in with degrees (paid for by other states) which allows Texas to spend less on education for positive economic results. Alabama on the other hand has relatively low net migration (only 700k in the past 20 years) so they have to entice people to come to their state, and the way to get educated people to come is by offering quality scholarships to out of state students, and hope they stick around post-graduation.

BTW, when comparing states, I'm not sure I can agree with simple economic adjustments for COL when Alabama takes in more federal money than it outlays. Unless you are trying to convince me that welfare is a good idea. Which I already agree with. At a individual level, sure. But not when discussing the economic position of the entire state.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:20 PM
 
7,299 posts, read 8,140,622 times
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Originally Posted by TheOverdog View Post
I completely agree, but from an economic perspective, Texas and Alabama are in completely different places. Texas has high net immigration, with (hopefully) a number of those people coming in with degrees (paid for by other states) which allows Texas to spend less on education for positive economic results. Alabama on the other hand has relatively low net migration (only 700k in the past 20 years) so they have to entice people to come to their state, and the way to get educated people to come is by offering quality scholarships to out of state students, and hope they stick around post-graduation.

BTW, when comparing states, I'm not sure I can agree with simple economic adjustments for COL when Alabama takes in more federal money than it outlays. Unless you are trying to convince me that welfare is a good idea. Which I already agree with. At a individual level, sure. But not when discussing the economic position of the entire state.
Lots of states take in more than they pay. And more importantly not much of that is welfare per se. I just looked but can't post the link so you'll have to trust me. On the "Moocher Index" it's sort-of a tally sheet for % of welfare, food stamps, AFDC etc. per state. Alabama is firmly in the middle of the pack - NY, Mass and Calif are near the top.

For clarification I'm not for an instant claiming that Alabama compares to Texas economically. In no important way does it. What I am saying is that Alabama is not some depressed perpetual poverty state like New Mexico or Hawaii. I got the feeling that was your implication about five posts ago.

I guess if your point was Alabama is economically repressed versus Texas I'd agree. If your point was Alabama is a backward weak economy perpetually poor state I'd disagree strongly.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:31 PM
 
2,206 posts, read 3,797,992 times
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Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post

1. We have a super-abundance of very bright kids relative to our state's ability to educated them in college.
We have a great school system that is getting better every year. And it is good for ALL Texans, not just the kids in Plano.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post

2. We are a very rich state, regardless of all of the silly emotional arguments to the contrary Texas is 3rd in adjusted average income by far the best performing very large state for context California is 45th.
And getting richer. Texas is the #1 exporting state in the US and in the next 5-8 years, it will surpass CA as the top GNP state as well. TX will become the Saudi Arabia of the Western Hemisphere but with a manufacturing base of Taiwan. Let that sink in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
To me it's simple economics Alabama has an issue and it is investing in its future by offering all of these scholarships. In the long run this is a win for Alabama and a loss for Texas - just too many bright kids leave and don't come back.
Next time you are in Huntsville, go look at the Saturn Rocket at the NASA museum there. Look closely at the welds and machine tooling on the rocket engine.

The smartest employee I have has no college degree and grew up poorer than dirt in that area. But he is astonishingly smart and a hard worker. Alabama does have a long way to go, but it will get there.
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