End of suburban sprawl? (Dallas, Austin: best neighborhoods, low crime, buying)

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by EDS_

So you think it makes sense long term for DART to buy more narrow busses and for DFD, PFD, RFD etc, to buy smaller fire trucks for these places?

You have a very irritating habit of immediately getting defensive and putting words in other peoples' mouths. You've done it to several people on this thread. Please calm down.

You said narrow streets were a "non-starter" because emergency vehicles and buses can't fit down them.

I pointed out that your risible statement was incorrect, since emergency vehicles and buses come in smaller sizes.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

You have a very irritating habit of immediately getting defensive and putting words in other peoples' mouths. You've done it to several people on this thread. Please calm down.

You said narrow streets were a "non-starter" because emergency vehicles and buses can't fit down them.

I pointed out that your risible statement was incorrect, since emergency vehicles and buses come in smaller sizes.

I'm always calm and I'm more or less never defensive.

1. Sorry I'm not trying to be irritating. I think like an economist, hidden costs, opportunity costs, marginal costs, scalar efficiency etc, and you think like an artist, what looks good, feels good, promotes social contact etc. is good. I'm betting that's a pretty fair assessment.

2. I pointed out, although indirectly, that while it's possible to buy smaller busses, ambulances, fire trucks etc. Doing so would also be astronomically expensive - ergo it's not going to happen.



I also want to underscore that while you and I agree about almost nothing I value what you write and appreciate your views on things. I'm used to arguing, professionally speaking, with guys about all sorts of guy/territorial things and guys hammer each other and call each other names and ten minutes later no one can recall the details.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by happycrow

Hell no, and you've taken what I wrote completely out of context.

I didn't mean to do so. What did you mean?

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by EDS_

1. Sorry I'm not trying to be irritating. I think like an economist, hidden costs, opportunity costs, marginal costs, scalar efficiency etc, and you think like an artist, what looks good, feels good, promotes social contact etc. is good. I'm betting that's a pretty fair assessment.

You are wrong again, sorry. I don't think like an artist; I'm a solid left-brained type A.

[happycrow]

EDS, original context preceding the bit you quoted:

Pace EDS and Lakewooder, suburban sprawl will end when Dallas is more attractive than Plano, Allen, Irving, or Pantego for people who *don't* have serious money. Us middle-class schlubs need places to live and raise kids which don't suck, too, and there are more of us than there are rich people and childless "creatives" -- and by a large margin.

At no point was I talking about Dallas being awful compared to some other city. Rather, I was stating that the suburbs are here to say because it's economically irrational for middle-class people to attempt to raise families in the current urban environment, which has lots of wonderful things -- all of them unaffordable for a responsible family person who is earning an average salary. Urban planners and dense-living advocates can write article after article, but until they square this circle, suburbs and sprawl are here to stay.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

You are wrong again, sorry. I don't think like an artist; I'm a solid left-brained type A.

Interesting.

[BigDGeek]

Originally Posted by EDS_

Interesting.

Not really.

[RonnieinDallas]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

We're on the upswing in Richardson but we definitely went through steps 1-6. Property values didn't plummet but they did stagnate somewhat and now they're on the upswing. We're already seeing teardowns in my neighborhood in Richardson, though thankfully they are confined to a very small section with large, creekside lots. Let's hope it doesn't spread further, though we do have a brand-new wart on Newberry courtesy of Shaddock & Caldwell.

Richardson is definitely on an upswing, but never really went down. Richardson has always been a big supporter of DART, and they're finally starting to get the benefits from it. Nice TODs, all along the rail lines in Richardson.

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

People in different stages of their life like to live in different places, and I think development should support that. So sprawl will never end.

In the past, DFW didn't support any living scenarios beyond the single family home or garden apartment. It does now. That's some good growth and learning from past mistakes. Not too many years into the future, DFW is going to have some legtimately great walkable neighborhoods, and that's a good thing.

I agree, it's nice to have variety. I just wish the walkable development would have started earlier, and there wasn't so much opposition to it.

Originally Posted by winkosmosis

Most of that has happened to the suburb where I spent my teen years in Houston. The area was built from the 60s to the 80s and filled in much more in the 90s. Now there's nothing desireable about the area and the only people who live here are older families, seniors, and young people like me who got stuck. The strip malls are getting more payday loan places, smoke shops, etc. Strip mall sprawl is a terrible thing.

I lived in south Irving until I was 7, and saw it happen there. Everyone who could, moved out to Las Colinas or to the mid-cities. I think there's a lot of opportunity in DT Irving near the Rock Island Station for urban development, but it's sad there's a new drive-thru McDonald's and Burger King instead of nice apartments. The city of Irving totally neglects the south side, and puts all the focus on las Colinas/Valley Ranch.

Originally Posted by EDS_

We need to have a beer sometime and go over some of this. Generally speaking over time and especially after first gentrification cities and larger suburbs become more dense. That happens organically without the .gov trying to call the shots.

And for the record narrow streets are a non-starter for all kinds of reasons ranging from evacuation protocols to slow auto traffic etc. They are unfriendly to emergency vehicles and large city busses too.

I would be open to that. Has there ever been a city-data Dallas meet-up? It would be cool to put faces and names to the other local members on here.

[TheOverdog]

think like an economist, hidden costs, opportunity costs, marginal costs, scalar efficiency etc,

How does 'thinking like an economist' square with thinking smaller busses, ambulances, fire trucks would be astronomically expensive? Moving from a 6 lane divided road to a two lane road makes fire trucks and busses more expensive?

Can you sort of explain what you are talking about? How does the cost of an ambulance even compare with the cost of a 6 lane road?

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by happycrow

EDS, original context preceding the bit you quoted:



At no point was I talking about Dallas being awful compared to some other city. Rather, I was stating that the suburbs are here to say because it's economically irrational for middle-class people to attempt to raise families in the current urban environment, which has lots of wonderful things -- all of them unaffordable for a responsible family person who is earning an average salary. Urban planners and dense-living advocates can write article after article, but until they square this circle, suburbs and sprawl are here to stay.

Ok. Within all of that I agree with you. I can't think of a first world city anywhere that allows, "the average or just above earner" to live close to downtown and avail his family to good schools and live in a decent, less expensive home in a safe neighborhood. Certainly, there are tiny exceptions - a couple of plots in Austin east of 35 but within eye-shot of downtown leap to mind - but generally supply and demand curves close to desirable urban cores preclude the normal guy's participation.