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And here's the latest post on that data blog. TAG's SAT including the non-poor kids was 1917, but just the poor kids had the same score as HP as a whole. I think that's just awesome. (And no, I'm not saying that DISD as a whole is great and yes, I realize that this is the cream of DISD's poor, etc.)
2012 - Average SAT Scores of Poor Students in Dallas-Fort Worth Area
This is a list of average SAT scores of economically disadvantaged students in Dallas area high schools. These are students who qualify for the free and reduced lunch program and are typically a challenging group to educate. The scores include all three sections of the SAT - math, reading and writing. Each section has a max score of 800, with a total max score of 2400.
Some schools like Highland Park, Argyle, Lovejoy, Sunnyvale, Carroll and Westlake don't have enough low income students (if they have any at all) to have an average for this category, so you won't see those schools on this list.
Source: Texas Education Agency
Average SAT Scores Poor Students - School (District ISD/charter)
And by the way, once you start getting down into where DISD's comprehensives show up, Woodrow is behind Skyline, Hillcrest, White, North Dallas, and Thomas Jefferson (?!?). Remember, this is just the economically disadvantaged kids. Would love to hear an analysis for why this might be.
1272 - Skyline (Dallas)
1271 - MacArthur (Irving)
1269 - West Mesquite (Mesquite)
1267 - Arlington Heights (Ft. Worth)
1265 - Lake Highlands (Richardson)
1265 - Horn (Mesquite)
1263 - North Side (Ft. Worth)
1260 - Hillcrest (Dallas)
1253 - Sam Houston (Arlington)
1253 - Desoto (Desoto)
1249 - Lakeview Centennial (Garland)
1246 - Gilliam (Dallas)
1242 - Thomas Jefferson (Dallas)
1240 - Singley (Irving)
No one is minimizing that challenges that face WW. What is tiresome is that when objective criteria is posted, ie, that WW did very poorly on an objective test (the SAT this time), a person will post that WW did good when you consider its white population, its free lunch stats, or the ESL numbers. Well, you have to consider all of those factors when you are evaluating a school as a whole. You don't get to pick and choose certain groups of students when evaluating a school.
As for your demographics argument, I think we all agree. If we dropped the freshman class of St. Marks into WW, with their excellent education background, their goals, the expectation of success, and their parents, WW would have 10-15 NMSF in 4 years. But, that is never going to happen. Instead, you have to play the hand that was dealt.
With all due respect, but I would say that is exactly why you have to go by the subgroups. Obviously comparing Woodrow as a whole to Plano West would be a futile exercise. Those are completely different demographics. When you consider that for the SATs, Plano West students can afford to attend Karen Dillard prep courses, which would be a non starter for the reduced lunch groups over at Woodrow, then of course you are going to see Plano beat the pants off Woodrow on the SAT scores.
Now the white students at Woodrow are far more similar to those at Plano West. Generally speaking, the white Woodrow kids are probably just as affluent, with similar levels of family stability. Now you are levelling the playing field. If those Woodrow white kids are still failing abjectly compared to Plano West, then you have a case for Woodrow being incompetent. If on the other hand those white kids at Woodrow are competing, then you can say that Woodrow teachers are doing the best they can with what they have.
With all due respect, but I would say that is exactly why you have to go by the subgroups. Obviously comparing Woodrow as a whole to Plano West would be a futile exercise. Those are completely different demographics. When you consider that for the SATs, Plano West students can afford to attend Karen Dillard prep courses, which would be a non starter for the reduced lunch groups over at Woodrow, then of course you are going to see Plano beat the pants off Woodrow on the SAT scores.
Now the white students at Woodrow are far more similar to those at Plano West. Generally speaking, the white Woodrow kids are probably just as affluent, with similar levels of family stability. Now you are levelling the playing field. If those Woodrow white kids are still failing abjectly compared to Plano West, then you have a case for Woodrow being incompetent. If on the other hand those white kids at Woodrow are competing, then you can say that Woodrow teachers are doing the best they can with what they have.
Here you go!
Plano West's white SAT: 1157
Woodrow's white SAT: 1087
Well, since I'm home for the holidays and don't have something better to do tonight I'm going to chime in. I see my alma mater is being thrown around a lot in this discussion.
Before that though, thank you Ramona for posting those numbers. I too am happy to see the success of those kids at the magnets, as well as at Flower Mound. Very impressive.
First off, Woodrow is not 80% poor, it's closer to 50-55%. I certainly agree though that it's signifigant portion of the student body, so it's worth looking at the subgroups to make a call on whether the school has its act together.
I also agree that it's likely that white students at Woodrow and West are pretty comparable in terms of family income, etc.. As another poster pointed, White students at Woodrow scored a 1599. The same group at Plano West scored a 1715. (The numbers Ramona posted are from last year, before they added writing) However, contrary to what was stated, that is a huge difference. I don't know where he got one question being worth 40 points, but that's just flat out not true. When you're looking at the 500s range of the SAT in each section, a question, if it impacts your score at all, will only be worth about ten points (here's a sample SAT score conversion chart, from the raw score to the 200-800 scaled score:https://satonlinecourse.collegeboard..._2012-2013.pdf). So this is the equivalent of four questions or so on each section on the test. Again, that's a big difference, considering that these groups should be performing at the same level. When it comes time for college admissions, you better believe admissions officers are going to notice the difference between a 1600 and a 1715 on the SAT.
I think for context, it would be helpful to look at this from a percentile standpoint. The average White student at PWSH stands at the 75th percentile for SAT takers. The average White student at Woodrow, on the other hand, is at the 63rd percentile. So again, we're not talking about an indismissable difference.
(http://media.collegeboard.com/digita...R-M-W-2013.pdf)
Now to get to why I am writing all of this. I am not trying to beat down on Woodrow. A 1599 on the SAT is nothing to be ashamed of - it's solidly above average. But I am really quite confused as to the treatment it gets on this forum. Even when you only consider the White subgroup, it just doesn't make the cut as a top school. Again, it's not doing a bad job with these students, but if we want to be fair, we should be honest with how this school is performing - for affluent White students, it's on par with some mediocre to good high schools, and there is hope that in the long term, it might improve.
Last edited by PISDstudent; 12-29-2013 at 08:13 PM..
With all due respect, but I would say that is exactly why you have to go by the subgroups. Obviously comparing Woodrow as a whole to Plano West would be a futile exercise. Those are completely different demographics. When you consider that for the SATs, Plano West students can afford to attend Karen Dillard prep courses, which would be a non starter for the reduced lunch groups over at Woodrow, then of course you are going to see Plano beat the pants off Woodrow on the SAT scores.
Now the white students at Woodrow are far more similar to those at Plano West. Generally speaking, the white Woodrow kids are probably just as affluent, with similar levels of family stability. Now you are levelling the playing field. If those Woodrow white kids are still failing abjectly compared to Plano West, then you have a case for Woodrow being incompetent. If on the other hand those white kids at Woodrow are competing, then you can say that Woodrow teachers are doing the best they can with what they have.
Sorry- I just don't agree. When people ask me if a particular school is good, I never say that the school is good if you are white, or great if you are Asian, or below average if you are black, etc. The school is either great, good, average, below average, etc. Segregation ended 40 years ago and trying to break out scores based on race or family income to justify otherwise crappy scores is just wrong.
Sorry- I just don't agree. When people ask me if a particular school is good, I never say that the school is good if you are white, or great if you are Asian, or below average if you are black, etc. The school is either great, good, average, below average, etc. Segregation ended 40 years ago and trying to break out scores based on race or family income to justify otherwise crappy scores is just wrong.
There has been a black/Hispanic achievement gap that policymakers have been trying to address since LBJ. It's beyond the scope of a post here to get into why it might exist, but there is absolutely value in breaking down numbers by subgroups, both to look at successes as well as failures.
Sorry- I just don't agree. When people ask me if a particular school is good, I never say that the school is good if you are white, or great if you are Asian, or below average if you are black, etc. The school is either great, good, average, below average, etc. Segregation ended 40 years ago and trying to break out scores based on race or family income to justify otherwise crappy scores is just wrong.
well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you expect me to give Highland Park High School props for turning out top scores when its students come from 6 and 7 figure income house holds, compared to Woodrow whose kids come from the reduced lunch/esl groups, then it's not going to happen. I would expect Highland Park scores to be some of the highest, certainly much higher than those of Woodrow...it's the equivalent of praising the guy who has a ferrari for winning a race against the other guy with a bicycle. Defies logic in my view. YMMV.
Well, since I'm home for the holidays and don't have something better to do tonight I'm going to chime in. I see my alma mater is being thrown around a lot in this discussion.
Before that though, thank you Ramona for posting those numbers. I too am happy to see the success of those kids at the magnets, as well as at Flower Mound. Very impressive.
First off, Woodrow is not 80% poor, it's closer to 50-55%. I certainly agree though that it's signifigant portion of the student body, so it's worth looking at the subgroups to make a call on whether the school has its act together.
I also agree that it's likely that white students at Woodrow and West are pretty comparable in terms of family income, etc.. As another poster pointed, White students at Woodrow scored a 1599. The same group at Plano West scored a 1715. (The numbers Ramona posted are from last year, before they added writing) However, contrary to what was stated, that is a huge difference. I don't know where he got one question being worth 40 points, but that's just flat out not true. When you're looking at the 500s range of the SAT in each section, a question, if it impacts your score at all, will only be worth about ten points (here's a sample SAT score conversion chart, from the raw score to the 200-800 scaled score:https://satonlinecourse.collegeboard..._2012-2013.pdf). So this is the equivalent of four questions or so on each section on the test. Again, that's a big difference, considering that these groups should be performing at the same level. When it comes time for college admissions, you better believe admissions officers are going to notice the difference between a 1600 and a 1715 on the SAT.
I think for context, it would be helpful to look at this from a percentile standpoint. The average White student at PWSH stands at the 75th percentile for SAT takers. The average White student at Woodrow, on the other hand, is at the 63rd percentile. So again, we're not talking about an indismissable difference.
(http://media.collegeboard.com/digita...R-M-W-2013.pdf)
Now to get to why I am writing all of this. I am not trying to beat down on Woodrow. A 1599 on the SAT is nothing to be ashamed of - it's solidly above average. But I am really quite confused as to the treatment it gets on this forum. Even when you only consider the White subgroup, it just doesn't make the cut as a top school. Again, it's not doing a bad job with these students, but if we want to be fair, we should be honest with how this school is performing - for affluent White students, it's on par with some mediocre to good high schools, and there is hope that in the long term, it might improve.
Well then it's like I said. If the most affluent kids at Woodrow are still not able to compete with similar kids from Plano et al, then indeed we can point to the educators at that school and question if they are indeed doing the best they can for the students. I call it like I see it. If no kid at that school can compete with similar kids from other schools then it's no longer a question of demographics as I initially thought.
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